to be a bit horrified that Boots are recommending CIO?

[JenniferCanesten]

As I am signed up to the Boots Parenting Club for the vouchers, periodically I get sent a magazine relevant to DS's age.

The other day I got the 5-9 months one in the post and flicking through it was a bit shocked to see this (on pg 12):

"from 6 months, you can leave your baby to cry for short periods. Try five minutes at first, then gradually extend the time so she'll learn to settle herself."

I find it very cross-making that they are presenting this as though this is an irrefutable part of parenting whereas obviously CIO/controlled crying is a pretty controversial method that many parents, myself included find cruel and unnecessary and possibly damaging.

They are GIVING ADVICE to people, which is a position of responsibility! I don't bother getting annoyed by many things but this has really pissed me off!

I think the op's point was that much sleep training is somewhat controversial and that she was therefore surprised to see it recommended by Boots.

I am glad that we have established here that she is talking shit and cc is in fact not controversial. :)

Aaaargh- that sounds exactly like the voices inside my head (well, mostly coming from outside really) when ds was born. Ouch ouch ouch.

And do you know what? In the end it turned out that I was right

Only because no one else knows how I think and what works for me and my baby like I do. I had to pretty much lose the plot before I worked that one out tho.

Am hoping I have a lot more self belief this time round (not too long to go now...)

oh CC is controversial - I have been on many threads on MN where the names called to parents who used CC (or are thinking of using it) are

What did the rest of the article say. Perhaps it did mention other types of sleep training (such as the ones I mentioned above).

absolutely ginhag. And the thing is they're all so different.

DS1 - we ended up using CC

DS2 - we didn't have to do anything - he went to sleep on his own with no tears from the word go, and slept through from 3 weeks old

DS3 - I discovered quite by chance (after I'd got upset that I couldn't settle him and put him down to go down and take have a fag a breather) that after a couple of minutes crying on his own when tired he would fall asleep.

Baroque, I sometimes wonder if that is just one or two very smug individuals, who delight in making other parents feel miserable.

x posts - I was thinking about the vicious name-callers

actually you could be right there unwind......

i didn't say what was the right way - there are many right ways. I only said what I consider to be wrong, and that's allowing a baby to cry alone by itself for longer than a few minutes when unavoidable.

The OP says 'start with five minutes, then gradually extend the time' so it wasn't about just five minutes.

I may be wrong but I believe leaving babies to cry alone can do damage, from the evidence and theory I have read.

I did seek to differentiate from CC.

actually the "gradually extend the time" to me sounds like they're (rather clumsily) trying to explain CC.

But flight - I didn't even read your post - so none of my comments were directed at you

yes indeed, clumsily being the operative word - they need to do this responsibly and properly, not just cast little statements like that out into the ether.

there are some really thick people out there who will use it to whatever ends they desire - 'Oh the boots book said leave them to cry so it's fine, she's 6 months now, she's only been crying half an hour' etc etc

Babies can choke, become hysterical, etc etc

Boots has a duty of care to do this stuff properly.

I think that part of the problem is that most of us get bamboozled by pseudoscience, and fail to notice cherrypicking and misrepresentation, for example, from Oliver James.

Flight - care to point us towards the evidence you've read?

When I researched this myself, I was disgusted at how so many charlatans extrapolated from - extreme neglect (e.g. in Romanian orphanges) leading to poor outcomes, to leaving a lovingly cared for, fed and stimulated, child to cry at bedtime being harmful.

This kind of nonsense puts huge pressure on parents who are struggling.

I don't think CC is that controversial. I think many many people do it but don't call it CC. And actually, I don't think that the CC you might do with an older baby/toddler is the same as they "letting a younger baby whimper for a bit to see if it will go to sleep on it's own and not picking it up for every tiny noise" that even more people do.

It's just that members of CC Club don't talk about CC Club on MN. It's a grubby shameful little secret

Oh, and CC is definitely not the same as letting a baby cry itself to sleep, as others have already said.

No, and it was nothing to do with Romania either - but it was a while ago and I can't be bothered.

Sorry - I know I should really. I just walked a long way in the snow and just have not got the mental capacity to back myself up.

But there's plenty of stuff out there if anyone else can be bothered!

Jamie, I hate to say it but it was the picking up for (not every but) most tiny noises what saved me from ever having him cry before the age of 6 months. (actually he did cry twice, I don't know why - wind? for about 20 mins. Would not feed and I just carried him till he stopped)

Feeding cues are not always screams. You can preempt the screams if you're watchful and lucky!

Not every tiny noise needs a response but you can learn the cues. It's not always possible to do this though. I realise that.

Flight - there is plenty of bollocks opinion out there - no evidence against it.

I realise there's a lot of bollocks. But there is some good sound research as well. My mother talks about it a lot - she studied child psychology and thence worked for many years in child therapy. She knows the good stuff and fwiw I believe her - but I couldn't recommend a book or anything. she has hundreds about this stuff.

and I'd hesitate to believe your assertion that there is no evidence, because really, unless you've looked hard for it, how can you say that with any sort of assurance?

I have looked very hard for it. If you are certain there is evidence, by all means point us towards it! Otherwise I'll find it hard to believe your assertion that it exists.

I'll have to ask mother. Have you got ten hours?

Flight - I think I undermined the ability of my first DS to self-settle when he was very little by not being able to recognise the sort of whimpering that he'd do when I first put him in the cot.

When I had DS2 I was much more confident at recognising the meaning and tone of his different cries.

Also, some babies cry more than others. DS2 did not really cry out of tiredness or frustration as a little baby - I pretty much knew that if he was crying he was hungry.

Exactly. this is a pretty straightforward and measured article with Penelope Leach...a lot hangs on responsiveness of the carer, whoever it may be.

I like Penelope Leach, she's quite sensible.

I agree with Penelope Leach but I did do CC with DS2 when he was 18 months.

Even if you do CC under 18th months you go back into the room and calm the baby after a short interval, increasing by 2 minute increments. You just don't pick the baby up.

There aren't any references to the Leach article, so its hard the evaluate her position.

That article is utter tripe, based on Leach's opinions, and confusion about neuroscience.

As previous posters have pointed out, there is no reason to believe that sleep training led to increased cortisol, after the first couple of nights. Besides, why would you belive those raised cortisol levels are harmful? The excellent neuroskeptic blog discusses that here:
neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/2010/05/does-oliver-james-damage-brain.html

after the first couple of nights? So that's alright then...

will go read your link.

I wasn't posting it as evidence, just as opinion - but I gather she bases her opinion on evidence. It's her job.