To not give my children the swine flu vaccine?

[wintersnow]

I decided not to last year as I wanted to wait and see how safe it was but am reconsidering this year after several people have died. Did you give it to your children and what were your reasons to give/not give it?

If I was offered it, I'm genuinely not sure if I'd accept.

I've had every other vaccine, but this one, to me, is still a bit new and a bit "hmm". If we'd had the vaccine for 5 plus years and I knew the side effects, then yes, I'd take it if offered.

But it's neither here nor there as I don't get offered the seasonal jab, nor this one.

YANBU, everyone has their own reasons for things, and I'm willing to accept that.

FWIW, I live with an uncle who is tetraplegic, and none of the other family members get offered ANY flu jabs, even though us giving it to him could spell BIG problems :(

Claig your final statement isn't very fair and just a tad general isn't it?

I have chosen to vaccinate my children but I can assure you both DH and I have looked into the vaccinations before proceeding.

OP - to vaccinate or not is of course your choice as a parent. You must do what you think is in your child's best interest based on the information available.

Claig - just re read you final statement and I take it back. I read it that you were saying those of us who have chosen to vaccinate haven't looked into but you didn't say that - sorry

LauraNorder have you looked into the arguments against vaccination? Have you read about the risks and the efficacy and the fact that the virus mutates etc.?

Yes we have Claig

ok then you have made a decision, which hopefully is correct

claig

Scientists can be wrong and science is also developing. You can't rely on one article and need to review all the evidence as well as understand the limitations of the study (eg is it generalizable to the whole population). I've found that NICE does that when reviewing a question having read papers it produces.

However, if you don't base your decision-making on the best available scientific evidence, how do you inform your decisions?

BTW, your comment about global warming demonstrates a real lack of understanding about variation and probability - which probably translates into a lack of understanding about relative risk, an extremely important concept when weighing up whether to vaccinate or not.

And since you felt free to generalize, in my experience, people who choose not to vaccinate healthy children against the key reommended diseases have a large amount of paranoia and very limited understanding of epidemiology - yet think they understand all the issues from surfing the internet and reading various websites rather than systematically reviewing the scientific literature. A little bit of knowledge can sometimes be a dangerous thing.

Well said petelly
I think there are still 18 deaths an hour from measles.
Nobody is saying there isn't side effects from vaccines and there aren't children who it is not safe to vaccinate. My sister and I were not allowed to have measles vaccine in 60/70s because of family history.
However those are the children who need the most protection by herd immunity, yet somw of their parents spend a lot of their time on forums scaremongering with dodgy research trying to persuede others not to vaccinate.

petelly, people's decision not to vaccinate is not always based on anything to do with the autism risk (or lack thereof.) I think that's where Leonie's frustration is stemming from.

Regarding artificial herd immunity (from vaccines) - how do people explain the outbreaks of the diseases that occur in populations with 100% or nearly 100% uptake? Also, vaccine immunity wears off so how does a 95% uptake of any vaccine guarantee what level of disease is circulating in the community among those who were vaccinated but whose immunity has now worn off?

Regarding swine flu - how many of us are actually still vulnerable after last years outbreak? Wasn't it estimated that something like 7 in 10 people had swine flu without showing any symptoms? Natural herd immunity is a wonderful thing...:)

petelly - you've ignored my reference to the columbia paper and still nobody has answered my questions about why they trust a government who ignores advice from the WHO. So I guess you don't have an answer to that.

I also do not agree that immunisation policy in the UK is remotely scientific - but you obviously do?

Personally I would be pleased if you (or anyone else) could point me in the direction of a paper......any scientific, clinical evidence which supports the need for babies to be vaccinated at 8 weeks old. I was told by a GP that it's done then to catch babies before their mums go back to work. Very scientific, that, eh?

Furthermore the passage of measles in Ethiopia is not the same as in the UK which is why people would be more likely to die of it there, not to mention the fact it's a third world country.

Many years ago in the UK, Measles was not generally considered to be a killer. Government propaganda has instilled more fear than is reasonable about what risks measles actually poses. Yes, it can cause complications but a healthy child will usually recover, especially if you know how to aid recovery.

oh and if a child's already autistic why bother about their health any more eh?

A profoundly offensive suggestion, that.

Well done Leonie for your excellent work on this thread. I agree with just about everything you've said.

I also agree with Valhallalalalalalal.

My children are all unvaccinated. They've had measles. It was an almighty immune system throw out.

These days they get ill far less frequently than their friends and they fight it off much quicker.

'A little bit of knowledge can sometimes be a dangerous thing.'

petelly, what if you are wrong? What if you don't really understand the issues behind vaccination or global warming? There are many knowledgeable people who think that the mainstream sources are wrong. What if some of these people are right?

What if diet drinks and aspartame are dangerous? what if botox is dangerous? just because they are sold in supermarkets and advertised everywhere and the mainstream says that they are ok, doesn't mean that it is true.

People are free to do their own research and to listen to scientists who say different. The more research you do, the more you find out and the more you realise that things are not as clear cut as they seem.

electra

I didn't suggest that at any point. Talk about inflammatory!!

I asked what the concern is about vaccinating children with autism as I genuinely have never heard about a problem with vaccinating children with already diagnosed autism. If that was me, I'd be even more concerned about their health and make certain they were immunised but that's me. I didn't receive a response other than some bizarre emoticon.

spidermama
glad you're basing your decisions on anecdotal evidence. my immunised daughter hasn't had one day off sick this year - and thankfully won't have to deal with measles, mumps, polio or even chicken-pox so probably even less sick than your children. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!!!!! You're talking about individual cases (bangs head against wall in frustration emoticon)

Agree with the point about the policy being non-scientific. It's budget driven. And if the government were serious about improving take up of vaccinations they would offer singles and give true parental choice.

claig

I'd be interested in seeing your systematic reviews of these topics. What criteria did you use to grade the evidence?? How did you search (other than google of course) to ensure all published literature was included?

On the one hand, you said people don't believe scientists. On the other, you say people are free to listen to scientists who say different. So which scientists do you listen to? How do you make that call?

saggar

Budget plays a huge part. That was the main consideration for NOT offering a chicken-pox vaccine. In the same way that I paid privately for my children to have the CP vaccine, you can pay for singles, the NHS shouldn't have to.

petelly, what if the ingredients that make up the vaccine overload a person's immune system causing possible illnesses? What if a person with autism needs a strong immune system to cope with possible existing gut problems and a further vaccine will weaken their immune system?

I've spent all afternoon seeing some very ill children with flu (am working GP out of hours), and admitted a small baby with it! Your choice entirely, but you're a fool!

*Leonie

No, there is minimal risk of some other adverse outcomes.

Personally, didn't appreciate the 'handpalm' emoticon which I assumed was directed at me as it directly followed my post.

Ekectra measles was a notifiable disease when I was young. When I had it my parents got a letter from nhs telling us not to go out in public
Children. Were kept in darkened rooms because it can cause blindness. It s all very well pretending to yourself that it issue mild disease when history says something very different . You want people to tale you seriously then you should get your facts right

petelly, you said;

'I still don't understand what the concern is about immunising children with already diagnosed autism.'

So, what does that actually mean?

That's nice that you could afford the CP vax. Lucky you. Everyone doesn't have that luxury (not that I'd give the CP vax other than to a teenager who hadn't had it).

Some parents have particular issues about the measles vax but can't choose to give singles because they can't afford it or find one unavailable.