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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not give my children the swine flu vaccine?

652 replies

wintersnow · 17/12/2010 16:15

I decided not to last year as I wanted to wait and see how safe it was but am reconsidering this year after several people have died. Did you give it to your children and what were your reasons to give/not give it?

OP posts:
claig · 20/12/2010 22:15

Have you met him? What do you think of his controversial views? Do you agree with him?

ArthurPewty · 20/12/2010 22:15

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StataLover · 20/12/2010 22:19

No, don't completely agree with him. But hugely respect him and the arguments he puts forward.

And completely agree with him regarding Mbeki. Do you not see the parallels with the anti-vax movement?

tryingtobemarypoppins2 · 20/12/2010 22:27

I would feel so sorry for any child who had a dangerously high temperature, chills,fatigue, sore throat, headache, difficulty swallowing and pain when swallowing,difficulty breathing, foul-smelling, bloodstained nasal discharge, and
swollen glands in the neck who then had to tollerate being immediately referred to hospital and admitted to an isolation ward then having membranes which will be interfering with their breathing, some or all of it will be removed painfully.

I would feel sorry for any child then having to have antibiotics to kill the bacteria via a needle in the back of their hand, and
antitoxins for three-days. I would expect an autistic child would struggle to understand not being able to leave the isolation ward until tests had shown you are completely free of infection.

All could of course be avoided with vaccination.

claig · 20/12/2010 22:31

From that article it looks like Mbeki beloeved that the medicines were harming AIDs sufferers and not helping them. He was not trying to make them suffer or trying to kill them, he believed he was helping them.
Peter Singer says

'In Mbeki's defence, it can be said that he did not intend to kill anyone. He appears to have genuinely believed ? and perhaps still believes ? that anti-retrovirals are toxic.
We can also grant that Mbeki was not motivated by malice against those suffering from Aids. He had no desire to harm them, and for that reason, we should judge his character differently from those who do set out to harm others, whether from hatred or to further their own interests.'

Singer then says that the majority of scientists disagreed with Mbeki. he says

'This does not mean that a majority of scientists is always right. The history of science clearly shows the contrary. Scientists are human and can be mistaken. They, like other humans, can be influenced by a herd mentality, and a fear of being marginalised.'

He says that history shows that the majority of scientists are not always right.

He says that Mbeki made the wrong decision, but says that Mbeki sincerely believed in what he believed.

I agree with Singer on all of that.

ArthurPewty · 20/12/2010 22:31

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StataLover · 20/12/2010 22:34

And do you see the parallels with the anti-vax movement? I sure do.

ArthurPewty · 20/12/2010 22:34

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StataLover · 20/12/2010 22:34

tryingtobemarypoppins

my thoughts exactly

tryingtobemarypoppins2 · 20/12/2010 22:35

Well I really hope they never do!
I do agree with some points you have made in this thread though. I do think more research needs to be done into Vitamin A for example.
Bloody hard being a patent and making choices!

tryingtobemarypoppins2 · 20/12/2010 22:37

"Mbeki sincerely believed in what he believed"
ahhhh what a nice man he is ShockAngry

claig · 20/12/2010 22:39

'And do you see the parallels with the anti-vax movement? I sure do.'

What are the parallels? How big is the anti-vax movement compared to the vax movement? Who has more money and more power?

Isn't the anti-vax movement just concerned individuals who ask questions of the pharmaceutical corporations and other powerful interests?

Beachcomber · 20/12/2010 22:41

Sorry cardinal sin - have not read all of thread.

I'm familiar with Leonie's position on this though and I tend to agree with her.

I have a vaccine damaged child and about 6 years experience of reading everything I can get my probing hands on about vaccination.

It does appear to be a bit of a Pandora's Box TBH.

I don't have the energy at the moment to get into big debates on MN - I'm too busy repairing the health of my (documented by doctors) vaccine damaged child.

I would just like to say, that if there is controversy, it is not without reason.

claig · 20/12/2010 22:42

Peter Singer, who some think is not a nice man, doesn't say that Mbeki was not nice, he says he was mistaken.

tryingtobemarypoppins2 · 20/12/2010 22:43

ummmmm I know what your trying to say claig then I stumble on websites like this and I think ummmmmmmmm no!
www.jesus-is-savior.com/Health_Concerns/Vaccines/biblical_support-not_vaccinating.htm

ArthurPewty · 20/12/2010 22:44

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StataLover · 20/12/2010 22:44

"Instead, he embraced the views of a small group of dissident scientists who suggested other causes for Aids. Mbeki stubbornly continued to embrace this position even as the evidence against it became overwhelming."

Yep, sounds like anti-vax people

"He appears to have genuinely believed ? and perhaps still believes ? that anti-retrovirals are toxic."

Same as the anti-vax folks.

"The culpable failure, especially when lives are at stake, is not to disagree with scientists, but to reject science as a method of inquiry."

Again, my thoughts exactly. Anecdote and conspiracy theory is not science.

Only difference is that anti-vax people don't make policy (thank goodness)

Beachcomber · 20/12/2010 22:48

Yunno Marypoppins, I'm not familiar with that site, and at first glance it looks pretty out there.

All the parents I have met IRL, who are cautious about vaccination, have a family member who is vaccine damaged.

And BTW it is pretty fucking obvious when someone reacts badly to a vaccine, despite what much of the media would have us believe.

Beachcomber · 20/12/2010 22:54

Hey Leonie - nice to see you too. I have kind of ducked out of vaccine threads in recent times. No doubt I'll come back to them - I just find it too painful at the moment I guess.

DD1 is doing OK, all things considered, but I worry about her so much - sometimes I need to take a break from talking about IT.

Anyway good to see you - am about to scan back up thread to read your comments as they are always informative.

ArthurPewty · 20/12/2010 22:59

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tryingtobemarypoppins2 · 20/12/2010 23:00

From what I have read its very obvious, often within 15mins? I am so sorry your daughter was damaged and its disgraceful that claiming compensation is still so complex.

Beachcomber · 20/12/2010 23:07

No I don't visit the SN boards Leonie.

My DD suffers from immune system disorders but, so far, she does not have SEN.

She is just very fragile health wise IYSWIM. (She has eczema, asthma, multiple severe allergies and a bunch of other immune system related stuff).

Thanks for the welcome to the SN boards - I'm MN 'friends' with a few posters who post there (pagwatch and silverfrog and yourself for example).

'Tis sad to have this thing in common - but fabulous that we are there for each other.

ArthurPewty · 20/12/2010 23:10

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Beachcomber · 20/12/2010 23:13

Thank you tryingtobemarypoppins2. My DD reacted very badly at the time to a baby DTP vaccination - 7 years on the doctor/lab/state/ concerned are still denying it.

Hey Ho.

Beachcomber · 20/12/2010 23:14

Thanks Leonie - right back at you. I know your wee ones have a hard time of it too.