To wonder if these riots will change anything?

[poshsinglemum]

I think it's getting totally out of hand. I think that HE should be accesable but that's what the students loan company is for-no? i have no money; I have a student loan. When I start to earn enough again I shall continue to pay it back.
I have no problem with demos but attacking a car etc is not helping the cause.

What would you consider appropriate action for a protester against the police? is it ok for them to hit the police with batons if the same is being done to them by the police?

on one hand we're being told that an unsustainable cycle of borrowing beyond our means is what caused the recession.

On the other hand we're being told that the only way to fund HE is for young people to borrow way beyond their means on expectations of higher earnings which may never materialise.

In order for young people to be able to borrow these large amounts, the government is essentially speculating on their financial futures; careers which will need to be carved in a market designed to favour those who can work for the lowest wages. Basically this money doesn't exist and probably never will in the economic climate of economic migration and outsourcing. Sooner or later the SLC will realise that a massive percentage of graduates will never earn over the threshold. At that point, it is reasonable to suggest that upfront fees will be phased in to redress this shortfall. That's what i'm really worried about.

its laughable to say on one hand youl earn so much more as a graduate and the cut jobs, esp local gov jobs.

lets be real here this is tory ideology and it stinks.

Who is saying you'll earn more as a graduate?

I think that's kind of the point of the system being proposed. If you dont earn more, you dont pay.

(I think it's a shit system for exactly that reason. It would be far more effective just to halve the number of Uni places and make it free)

for anyone condemning the student protests can i just list the following;

The right to vote
Freedom of speech
Freedom of movement
Freedom of expression
The right to own property
The right to legal representation
The right to humane working conditions

I could go on...

All of these things were fought for down the centuries with blood, sweat and violence. If you don't fight, you don't get.

GiddyPickle, You were obviously not there yesterday. I was almost ?kettled? (second group) and promise you, there was no reason whatsoever to do so where I was. People were chanting let us out. They wanted to get out. It was ridiculous and a very perverted way of boycotting a legitimate demonstration for legitimate reasons in a very well established democracy. To think the police was restrained reveals you have not been there..

I think it's amazing the middle-classes are protesting. Wait until the cuts really kick in,Especially when they effect the poorer people.

I remember the Brixton riots now they were scary.

foxinsocks - until the recent protests I would have agreed with you about the police doing a difficult job well. However there have recently been too many videos of police attacking people who are cowering on the ground / walking away at protests, riding horses into crowds and kettling large groups. I don't think any of those tactics can ever be justified. It's unfortunate that joining the police force has allowed some particularly violent individuals to use their training and weapons to attack innocent protesters. I know it isn't universal police policy, but there seems to be an awful lot more police brutality than I had previously been aware of. After it happened the first time there needed to be a crack down on poorly trained / just violent police officers to ensure that they are not in a position to attack people again.
The reason people threw things at the police was because they were being kettled - allow them to continue their march and leave and go home and there would never have been a problem. If some people were violent then of course it's legitimate to arrest them, but kettling people hundreds or thousands to incite violence is not a good policy. The flairs were thrown at the horses when they were used to charge a crowd. Again, something solved by not riding horses into crowds. I actually think it's legitimate to throw things at a horse if it is charging you or your friends (and I say that as a horse lover and experienced rider). It's scary and dangerous to have a horse canter at you and if the only way you can protect yourself is by making that horse spook with a fire cracker, then that's a perfectly legitimate form of self defence. I would however say shame on the police for using their horses in that way - animals are not weapons.

Giddy pickle, it's unsustainable lending which by its very nature can't continue forever. Graduates are having to compete globally (like all jobseekers) alongside those from developing nations who are favoured by employers because they can afford to work for lower wages. Ergo jobs paying over £21,000 are decreasing.

DH's cousin has a first from Cambridge (graduated last year) and can't find a job for love, let alone money, ditto many of his friends. This is the way the world is going. Can i make it any clearer?

I think the rpoblem - and this is highlighted by yesterday is that we are all talking about whether they were right to have violent protest or not.

We are not talking about the problem or what options there are to resolve them. As I said previously we have four times the number of students and therefore four times the costs.

We live in a democracy and therefore all had a say in our next government. If we don't like the way they choose to represent us and spend our money, we have the right to elect someone else next time.

I don't always agree with the policies of government - regardless of which party is in power. I respect the fact that they have been elected though. you will never please all of the people all of the time, but violent protest like this is never acceptable.

Poogles..
Just maybe you are forgetting that they were elected under false promises. And that, whatever has happened in the elections, we have the right to demonstrate, not only the right to vote.

Camaleon - haven't forgotten that but whoever voted for them is unlikely to do so again.

I agree we have the right to demonstrate but yesterday was not a demonstration - it was thuggery and violence. There was arson, assault, criminal damage, incitement... We don't have the right for that.

blueberrycustard if you are still watching this thread.

Some Dutch Universities offer courses in English and as EU citizens your dc's pay local rates for fees.

As they are half Dutch - this would be a great opportunity to spend time in Holland. If I were you I'd be looking into this - regardless of what happens to English Uni's.

I have a 17yr old ds who will hopefully go to uni in 2012 - so he is one of the first in this new system and I accept that it is necessary - the huge pile of debt has to be dealt with or we are in very long term big difficulties - who would like to be in Ireland or Greece now??

Also, it is a great thing for those who do part time degrees - a large group esecially of mothers, will have access to part time degrees where before they simply couldn't take them on. I have done a lot of studying at the OU which is fantastic and to think that others could benefit on generous terms ratehr than having to pay up front for first degrees I see as very. very good.

IT WILL MAKE THE COALITION THINK HARDER ON OTHER POLICIES

This student thing is getting on my pipping nerves!

There are lots of things in this country I dont like, and things that I have to live with. I dont like money wasted on certain causes - endless list I could list these but will prob upset too many. I have to accept it and throwing your toys out of the pram and expecting change. This country has a fab government whether we agree or not, look at other countries. We voted (and you'll find that alot of people didnt actually vote - and in general the population has little understanding of). Whether you vote for x or y you have to accept that there will be changes and ideas that you hate.

Why do students think they are so superior think that they are owed this! You dont see nurses or teachers behaving like this.

Fact - look at the candidates on The Appentice - I think you'll find in the final only one has a degree, the rest have clawed themselves up. Also the "Dragons" - SELF MADE.

Absolutely pathetic the attack, whats next? Are these going to be the next generation of post grads - god help us.

Teddy, the horses hadn't charged by the time that flare was thrown. They were standing back behind the front line of police.

And the reason they were kettled in the first place was because they had already turned violent and that was where they had wanted to be, right outside Parliament. And they knew they would be kettled as this happened last time! They didn't need to become violent! Those portion of the protestors were intent on violence, no matter what happened.

The protestors had already walked through most of central London, with the police standing beside them. It was only when they got to Westminster and outbreaks in Ox street/Regent St) that the violence seemed to escalate.

But I disagree re the policy. None of us voted for this. We never voted for a coalition either. This wasn't in the tory manifesto nor was it in the lib dems. I think education should be a focus of this government, not one of the first places they go to cut funds from. Imvho.

'Why do students think they are so superior think that they are owed this! You dont see nurses or teachers behaving like this.'

I really hope nurses and teachers to be up in arms if the government decides to privatise schools and health.

The thing is, the government wil have to borrow money to fund the student loans. They also wont be cutting funds for a while yet. So I fail to see how this is about deficit or debt reduction. It's ideological.

Peaceful protest make no difference. As a student I joined the poll tax demonstrations, I wasn't involved in the violence but felt that it contributed to the toppling of the poll tax.

I attended the Stop the War march in London. A largely peaceful protest. Result. Nothing. Public opinion totally ignored. I call that undemocratic but clearly a lot people are happy to accept being ignored.