workers are an underclass?

[soggy14]

Does anyone else feel that we are heading into a society where anyone working is becoming a poor underclass whilst the "well off" are those on benefits? Okay not as bad but approaching the Downton Abbey type senario where those of us in paid employment are downstairs and (some of) those on benefits upstairs.

And yes I know that some people on benefits need them and genuinely cannot work but many I think do not need them. And I know that I will now get flamed by hundreds shouting that they are struggling on benefits :) but we are struggling on our incomes but also need to work all the time and seem to be worse off than those doing nothing yet are having to support them :(

LOL Sancti - you'd think that they would take stuff like that into consideration, wouldn't you? But they don't - hence me being pg again, despite my epilepsy, desite our financial situation, all because hormonal contraception is ineffective when combined with epilepsy meds, and my PCT class me as 'too young' to be sterilised, and they are refusing to sterilise DP until after this baby is born as only DS2 is biologically his, and our PCT rules are that you must have at least 2 bio dc to have a vasectomy....Thank God that after this dc, they will sterilise BOTH of us!

Oh, FFS.

Keto isn't meant to help (as far as my Neuro thinks) with the type of seizures I have. (I have a mix of complex partials, drop attacks and atonic seizures). However, I do know of 2 dc locally that the Keto diet has been AMAZING for.

In fact I am amzed that with a genetic disability and me unable to take hormonal methods we still don;t get bumped up teh NHS vasectomy list, 18 month wait here. I mean, you'd think- no?

Perhaps they were thinking you might exercise some self control ?

Might ask my Neuro again in February when I get 'allowed' my annual visit...(Crap PCT have to travel 60 miles away to see Neuro and CT will only pay for one visit per year).

derailing the thread a bit here, but.. SantasMooningArse, i'm surprised it's an 18 month wait DH has his planned for the end of January, we first looked into it at the end of August and the GP said there was appointments available "at the end of November" - we live in a really shitty area (it's ok, i'm ok with that, we'll be moving in a few years :)) and we couldn't ever afford private medical treatment, totally on the NHS - are you sure that you can't speed it up in any way if you are both sure it's the option you want? I'm just sitting here really shocked that someone would have to wait 18 months for a vasectomy appointment on the NHS! Where ARE you?!

Oh FFS mamatomany - how many years would YOU go without the 'intimate' side of your relationship? In my case it would have been 10 years at least, as it would have been from my diagnosis 7 years ago, until I was at least 32 which is when they would have (at best) 'considered' referring me for sterilisation with 'only' 3dc. There's self-control, and becoming celibate for the best part of a bloody decade!

(Which, I might add, would have been for most of my twenties, and my early 30's, and how many people would be celibate at that age except a NUN?)

p.s. interestingly enough for the posts talking about eugenics, one of the reasons DH has his appointment booked (aside from the primary reason, medically related issues of my own) is that we just couldn't afford any more. i get depressed thinking about our finances (i come from a proud working class family where to get into debt is a shameful thing, so we have no debt aside from the mortgage in normal years) and our ability to afford another child is a massive issue. i have no idea how some couples can manage, tbh. i figure we just have to focus on the blessings we have already :) but i'm not going to lie and say that the massive cost and financial implications hasn't factored into our decision to stop. how can this country continue, if there are more couples like us out there thinking and doing the same? It's hardly great for the future, is it? The very people who should be producing the next generation are so stretched to breaking point with student tuition fees, housing costs, caring for the elderly, saving into pensions (chance would be a fine thing), thinking about saving for kids post 16 education... whilst having both mum and dad working in our case... makes me horrified to think of what state this country is going to be in for our children in 20 years time

frgr - Much as I am trying to get my head around the fact that I am having a baby in 6 weeks time, when we can ill afford to, I can't help but to feel that if my CT had listened to my pleas to be sterilised over the last 7 years, I may not be in that position now. TBH neither DP or I wanted any more dc, the 3 we had were hard enough to support given our circumstances. I tried to be responsible, and was on hormonal contraception (although I knew it was at best 85% effective given my other meds) and using condoms, the condom split, I took the MAP, and am STILL pg! Had my PCT agreed to either sterilise me or my DP, we wouldn't be HAVING another dc that we can't afford!

TBH we have no clue just how on earth we are going to afford to look after this baby, but do so we must. And DP is on a 'ban' until one of us is sterilised!

Loudlass, i'm assuming that you have kicked up the appropriate fuss, but just so you know, it seems to be that squeaky wheels get attention when it comes to this sort of thing.

my younger sister has never wanted children (as in, ever, she refused to play with dolls when she was a kid), and managed to get steralised at the age of 26 on the nhs. she faced a massive battle (wrote letters to trust, even threatened to go to newspapers), but she got there in the end. my mum even offered to pay for her to go to marie stopes. took sis 2 years for nhs to agree to fund it, but fund it they did. it seems unbelievably cruel, in your situation to blanket refuse the medical treatment you have requested when i look back to my DH's request for a vasecomy (they didn't blink! and i don't know how old you are, but if you've waited 7 years i'm assuming you're in late 20s or early 30s?)

hmm. i'm not sure if i have any constructive advice, but, really, i think you've been treated horribly by your local nhs!

Loudlass

This child will bring you great pleasure. He or she was meant to be here despite great odds.

Things will be tough and people will say things you may not like, but you will survive it and end up stronger.

Hope all goes well with the birth and days ahead. I think your family will be blessed.

It's only by being a 'squeaky wheel' that I have managed to get the PCT to agree to sterilise me after this dc, as I still won't meet the arbitary 'age' limit set by my PCT. I first asked when my epilepsy was dxd when I was 22yo, I'm currently 29yo, my PCT has a 'blanket policy' that to be sterilised on the NHS, you have to be '32+ with 4 dc' '35+ with 3dc' '38+ with 2dc' or '40+ with one dc'. And for the men, they have to have 2 bio dc. Cost cutting, just like my PCT not having a Neurologist, and only funding one visit per year to an out-of-PCT one. Or having no enuresis clinic, and refusing to pay for dc to go out of PCT at all for that service. Or no OT/physio even for dc if you can walk AT ALL.

"soggy14 Sun 05-Dec-10 13:18:29
DooinMe - take someone earning £50K. After tax and NI and health and pension you take home just over half that - ie just over £2K a month.
Our mortgage is £200K (not that high when you consider that we live in the south after having to move here for work after dh got made redundant up north - his main office is now closed which is why he is at home but we still need to live in the south as he keeps having to go to London to the office there). Average house price is about £250K round here (for nothing special - ie 3 bed semi with no gas or drainage - ones in the towns cost more) and we have only recently bought after saving the deposit so most of mortgage is still owing. So we pay £1300 a month mortgage, plus £130 council tax, £80 electric, about £100 for heating (at 2 -3 hours a day) and hot water (no gas so need to use oil) plus water rates and septic tank maintenwance contract (about another £100 a month). Plus petrol, car tax etc (no buses and need to get the kids to school). Not much left for food and clothes. And no we do not have a flash car. We have a 12 year old people carrier which was the only thing that we could fit 3 child seats in the back of.
Yes we may have a house but no our children will not be able to go to university. And as I said we cannot rent as rents are higher and we cannot get housing benefit

soggy14 Sun 05-Dec-10 20:12:13
The article quoted above says:
"...More than 13 million Britons, 22 per cent of the population, are now living on less than 60 per cent of the median (average) income [ie defined as "in poverty"]despite at least one parent bringing a wage home. That translates to a couple with two children under 14 who exist on less than £288 per week after income tax, council tax and housing costs have been paid..." well given that we have 3 children (and so would be allowed more) then we are "in poverty" once our housing costs (for our 3 bed semi) have been paid even though dh is a higher rate tax payer."

£50k pa = £688net pwk listentotaxman.com/index.php - £300 mort-£30ctax= £358pwk which is £70pwk/£303pcm/£3640pa above the poverty line you quote.
That?s not even counting your (undisclosed) income and the capital repayment part of your mortgage, which is effectively ?savings?.

If you pay £1300 for a 200K mortgage, you are either paying it over a very short term, or you are being robbed.

Mamatomany, I feel you have overstepped the mark in your criticism of loudlass. I have questioned loudlass's decision in a previous thread to have the number of children that she has (albeit much more politely than you). She's explained, and I accept her explanation. She clearly had no way of knowing that she would be unable to support her three children and she has explained on numerous occasions why there is about to be DC4. Yes, in her circumstances I'd be complaining loudly to the PCT that my situation was different and demanding sterilisation. And I think she has.

Getting back to the OP. I still think your mistake was to buy the house you have. I do realise that at this point there would be no gain in you selling it and buying something cheaper but I think you overstretched yourselves when you bought it. You could have bought a 3 bedroom house cheaper with better transport links but you chose not to.

The OP may well have been better to choose a different house, but it is so frustrating that housing is sooo expensive and seems to need such vast incomes for a basic need.

But housing is a massive exense even if you aren't buying, lovelyopaque. We have 3 (soon to be 4) dc in a mid-terrace house in a SE town that is a 2-bed with a study (that we use as a 3rd bedroom). We have to privately rent as there isn't any available social housing. Even with the help of some HB (as DP doesn't earn that much), we could not afford to rent a full-size 3 bed house. DD has the study as her bedroom, and my 2 ds's (will soon be 3) share the biggest bedroom. Our rent? £1000 pcm. For a full-size 3-bed in our town, the rent is £1200 pcm minimum. Average wage for our town? Well, I'm not sure, but shop managers get between £14K-£17K pa before tax!

The OP's house is obviously too much of a stretch, we all have to put up with less-than ideal housing situations if it's all we can afford.

That's what I meant. It's so expensive whether it's rented, bought whatever. People earning over 50k should be able to afford a 3 bed semi. It makes it difficult for so many people.

MissAnn - I am sorry but sterilising is not the only solution available, it's one certainly and if medication isn't appropriate and you have everything else stacked against you, epilepsy can get worse in pregnancy, it is also can be hereditary, the OH's LD could be hereditary typically, i'd be living the life of a nun for sure.
Christ with all that to contend with you would be a glutton for punishment having 4 children even with all the financial support in the world.

'In fact I am amzed that with a genetic disability and me unable to take hormonal methods we still don;t get bumped up teh NHS vasectomy list, 18 month wait here. I mean, you'd think- no?

Perhaps they were thinking you might exercise some self control ?

er we do, whcih is why I am not PG. We exercise condoms in fact. Vigourously, on the rare occasions we get a chance.

or am I not entitled to a sex life either?

There's no such thing as 100% safe contraception except sterilisation: I am classed as medically unsuitable (high risk for osteoporosis) so Dh is waiting on the list.

I dunno, you ca';t get it righht if you ahve them, can;t if you don't. I;d be sad if I cared.

I am fully aware of the methods of contraception available. She has explained why hormonal methods are less effective because of her epilepsy meds. So it really boils down to a failed condom (and failed MAP).

loudlass-I think it's horrid the criticism you have got on this and other threads I've read.

However I think your situation will improve in the long run. You are still young so you will still have plenty of working years ahead of you once your DCs are older/have left home. So throughout your adult life you will probably put in more through tax than you receive in HB/CTC in the meantime. That is what the benefits system is for!

You have mentioned not being able to do your old job but have you considered re-training for another well-paid job? You would be entitled to free course fees for a second first degree with the Open Uni. Maybe have a look at their website.

Also, having a condition like epilepsy should make you eligible for DLA. I remember that you have mentioned not getting this but you could re-apply. can I ask what reasons they gave for refusing you? Did you appeal the previous decision? Did you have a trained adviser to do the from for you and represent you?

An increasing number of people are in this situation of being too disabled to work but not disabled enough to get IB/ESA/DLA- it is a policy issue which you should tell your MP about (if you have not already done so).

BTW my Gran was on the council house waiting list for 20 years but she got there in the end.