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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

workers are an underclass?

238 replies

soggy14 · 05/12/2010 12:40

Does anyone else feel that we are heading into a society where anyone working is becoming a poor underclass whilst the "well off" are those on benefits? Okay not as bad but approaching the Downton Abbey type senario where those of us in paid employment are downstairs and (some of) those on benefits upstairs.

And yes I know that some people on benefits need them and genuinely cannot work but many I think do not need them. And I know that I will now get flamed by hundreds shouting that they are struggling on benefits :) but we are struggling on our incomes but also need to work all the time and seem to be worse off than those doing nothing yet are having to support them :(

OP posts:
spidookly · 05/12/2010 19:07

"Find something that lots of people need done and that not many people can do or are willing to do."

Or find something that is close to being completely useless and that any fuckwit can do as long as they are greedy enough - investment banking.

Because apparently it makes sense for all our best people to be involved in something that is currently a parasite that is sucking the economic life out of the global economy.

CardyMow · 05/12/2010 19:08
spidookly · 05/12/2010 19:08

How impertinent :o

Original poster
soggy14 · 05/12/2010 19:13

Santas in the old days where what you got depended on how many stamps you'd paid it did seem far fairer - now (well in 2008/2009 which are the last figures I could find we are at the stage where MORE is being paid out in benefits (ie just benefits here - no health etc) than was paid in income tax. This is why the country is in such a mess financially.

OP posts:
Reality · 05/12/2010 19:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SantasMooningArse · 05/12/2010 19:19

Soggy it didn;t work though overall, there wre always people in need at an age younger than they could accrue much stamp and we do still ahve the system where if you ahve paid mroe in you get contributions based benefits- it hasn' gone.

And thee will alwys be people like my ds3 who cannot pay in, no matter what he does to try. I wish it were otherwise, he hasn;t got a clue of course that he is anything other than average.

The best thing people can do is not restrict benefits to their own definition of worthy becuase that won;t work- most people think we deserve help (2 disabled kids, I am a caerr, Dh was amde redundant but satrted as self employed- well had hobby business when working FT but expanding it) but there are a fair few on MN who have expressed their desire to see us go udner so it does not affect their taxes. Likewise I have seen people suggest women in DV situations should stay put rather than claim whilst they look for work after escaping, or say that disabled people should be left unsupported.

the trick IMO is to instill a notion of the moral value of work. I don;t think ideleness ever occurred to my boys and I hope it stays that way: certainly, they see DH work 70, 80 hour weeks with training on top (his job needs a FT course for qualifications), me studying for a betetr future.

it is the only thing that will work without subjecting the children of teh 'feckless' to a penury I do not find acceptable.

violethill · 05/12/2010 19:21

I think that's a fair and balanced post reality, from someone who has lived both sides. I would totally agree that when looking at long term security, it's better to be financially independent of the state. But at the same time, you can see how absurd it is that a married couple with two pre schoolers could BOTH be working FULL time and still be significantly worse off than you were with one part time job

Reality · 05/12/2010 19:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CardyMow · 05/12/2010 19:37

But soggy - what about people like my DP, who has learning difficulties, attended a 'special' school, and has worked his socks off to get to the oint where he is being paid £4k pa over minimum wage? He cannot do any better than he is cureently doing, ever. We get more in TC's and HB than he has ever aid in Tax & NI, because despite working (almost, bar redundancies and finding new jobs because of that) FT for the 19 years since he has left school, as most of those jobs were either minimum wage, or before min wage, BELOW min wage.

I worked in a reasonably well paid profession for just 1 yr (after training) before my disability was dxd, and I was barred from that profession and told never to work FT again. I have in no way paid in enough tax and NI to cover the support we get as a family either.

But both of those reasons are beyond our control. I have had jobs since my diagnosis, but not for 3 yrs, and not FT as FT makes my epilepsy worse. And on minimum wage PT, I'm below the Tax and NI threshold. Do you propose that we and our dc should get no additional support from TC's and HB because we 'haven't paid enough stamp'?

spidookly · 05/12/2010 19:50

Interesting in the Indo

Record levels of poverty among familes with wages

mamatomany · 05/12/2010 19:58

The point is LL is a family like yours should not have more than one child in it, that's all you can afford and every additional child you bring into it plunges your family further into the poverty trap.

SantasMooningArse · 05/12/2010 20:04

I think LL has expalined her family on MN as much as she needs to and I for one have no issues with them.

And anyway things change: I managed a charity, DH managed a transport company. It's ds3 that will require lifelong care. no crystal ball here, which I am glad about as he brings so much joy to our lives.

Knowing a little about LD and the jobs amrket i think LL's Dh deserves more acclaim for managing to remian in work than many otehrs for earning far more.

mamatomany · 05/12/2010 20:08

I have issues with anyone who purposely bites off more than they can chew.
You don't get a pat on the back for going to work, it's expected not a fecking bonus when it happens.

SantasMooningArse · 05/12/2010 20:10

You can take pride in it though when it is against the ods; the stats on working with a LD are abysmally poor even though the vast majority wish to work. 15% for an ASD, although I do not know what SN LL's dh has.

Am not getting into the defence of LL as cannot say for sure what I recall is correct.

SantasMooningArse · 05/12/2010 20:11

(My memory, not LL of course).

Original poster
soggy14 · 05/12/2010 20:12

The article quoted above says:
"...More than 13 million Britons, 22 per cent of the population, are now living on less than 60 per cent of the median (average) income [ie defined as "in poverty"]despite at least one parent bringing a wage home. That translates to a couple with two children under 14 who exist on less than £288 per week after income tax, council tax and housing costs have been paid..." well given that we have 3 children (and so would be allowed more) then we are "in poverty" once our housing costs (for our 3 bed semi) have been paid even though dh is a higher rate tax payer.

OP posts:
CardyMow · 05/12/2010 20:12

mamatomany what should I have done with the other 2 dc over and above the 'allowed' one that I had when I got my diagnosis then? As I had 3 dc by that point as I was earning a decent wage. That's a question that you have dodged in every thread like this.

I already had 3 dc when my life changed. What should I have done with the extra 2 ??

Will you ever answer that question, mamatomany? And Thank you, Sancti, for understanding just how hard DP has worked to get his wage to £16K pa in a town where a shop managers average wage is £14K-£17K pa, and he doesn't have the skills to be management. He was told when he left school that he'd NEVER work...and set out to prove his careers officer wrong!

mamatomany · 05/12/2010 20:13

Don't most people take pride in their work ?
The point is for him as LL points out he is doing as well as he possibly can, good for him.
But that isn't the reason they struggle, the reason is they have too many kids.

mamatomany · 05/12/2010 20:14

You can't DO anything, that is your lot in life, sorry.

Reality · 05/12/2010 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CardyMow · 05/12/2010 20:16

Sancti - he has severe dyslexia and other LD's and is ASD. To keep him in employment it takes a lot of emotional and practical support from me.

SantasMooningArse · 05/12/2010 20:18

ASD is 15% employment rate.

Well done him. As you know I am studying an MA in ASD and I think he is doing bloody marvellously.

mamatomany · 05/12/2010 20:19

Unlikely to happen as I can debate without needing to resort to swearing though.

Reality · 05/12/2010 20:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CardyMow · 05/12/2010 20:21

But would you have 'limited' the amount of dc you had based on your getting diagnosed with a disability at some point in the future - that you had NO IDEA you were going to get diagnosed with??

mamatomany your posting name here has been bugging me for a while - if you truly are a mum to many, how many dc is 'many' to you? If it is the same amount as I currently have (3 dc) would you have had less dc 'just in case' you got diagnosed with a disability in the future? If so, then why do you have 'many' dc?

Do you have a crystal ball that is telling you that you won't be so unlucky? Or that to be lowered to being in my situation in the future is not your 'lot in life'. If so, could you pass on this amazing crystal ball to those of us that could use that information responsibly, please?