workers are an underclass?

[soggy14]

Does anyone else feel that we are heading into a society where anyone working is becoming a poor underclass whilst the "well off" are those on benefits? Okay not as bad but approaching the Downton Abbey type senario where those of us in paid employment are downstairs and (some of) those on benefits upstairs.

And yes I know that some people on benefits need them and genuinely cannot work but many I think do not need them. And I know that I will now get flamed by hundreds shouting that they are struggling on benefits :) but we are struggling on our incomes but also need to work all the time and seem to be worse off than those doing nothing yet are having to support them :(

Ah a benefit bashing by stealth thread

See, I think it's fine to say "We work very hard but still can't have all the things we want and it's making us miserable". The issue of what other people may or may not have doesn't come into it.

Oh, do go and put your big-girl panties on.

Yep, it comes out now....

Unsubstantiated gossip and daily fail twaddle... I'm sorry but if you genuinely believe that the recession was caused by the benefits bill...

I work, can't afford any holiday or car, yet seeing some of the people round here who are living entirely on benefits, I wouldn't swap my life for theirs in a million years.

Life is a journey, not a destination. Yes it can be hard, it can seem like an endless slog I know that well. We all think that if we had just a little more money, a little more time everything would be better. However, the more you have the more you will want.

You can sit back when you retire.

I notice that too Riven. People seem to think that the more people get paid, the harder they work. Not always true. If one person earns 10k and another 100k, there is no way they work 10x harder.

Soggy - If you include Tax Credits in your dismissal of the 'benefits culture', how do you propose that those people that cannot hoe to eanr more than £12-£16K pa EVER would survive? Working FT for minimum wage would pay our RENT. Nothing else. If we weren't in reciept of Tax credits. Not EVERYONE is capable of becoming a HRT payer no matter HOW hard they work. Surely it is better that they work, for a very low income, and have that income subsidised to help them to cover basic living costs, than that they just didn't bother to work at all?

Until EVERY employer in the country can/will pay a living wage to EVERY employee, there is a need for Tax Credits to top up low incomes unless you want a return to 19th century Victorian poverty on a massive scale.

Riven - I would have thought it would be impossible to buy a CRT tv these days - I don't think anyone manufactures them any more.

"There is a lot of suggestion that we budget better but why should we have to budget better so that some others can sit around doing nothing?"

Absolutely! Why should I pay for a bunch of quadriplegics just to sit around? Let them get on their bikes!

And my DP works bloody hard for his £16K pa. In a very hysical job that involves quite a lot of physical labour. How does he work LESS hard than someone else just because he earns less? I fail to understand that concept?

"The issue of what other people may or may not have doesn't come into it."

Of course it does.

It's only people who are far from the breadline that ever come out with shit like this.

If you are in work, earn just over the lazy "free school meals" bureaucratic watershed, and struggle to buy your children new shoes and a warn coat every winter it absolutely fucking well DOES matter if your brother who doesn't work has everything paid for him.

It makes people (correctly) feel that they are fools for working.

Fairness matters to humans because we are social beings.

That's why it's entirely fair to be fucking furious that greedy bastard CEOS are taking more and more of the profits workers are generating.

And it's why you need to design your benefits system (and employment legislation) so that it does not leave people worse off in work.

Telling people that they should not be pissed off if other people are getting more than them when there is no good reason for it is just preachy bullshit.

Politics of envy FTW.

It's the only way out of our current slide back to feudalism.

lovelyO maybe the odd footballer gts it easy but actually most people who get paid well work very hard for it. the thing is that your free time becomes increasingly more valuable as you get less of it so someone who (say) works 9 - 5 has loads fo free time every day and cannot see why anyone should earn loads per hour but someone who is leaving the house at 6.30 am adn not gettgin back till 9 or 10 at night, an dmaybe working or on call weekends, will demand (and should IMO get) a far higher hourly rate as their free time is so much more vaulable to them as the yhave so little of it so you do not need to work 10 times as long to deserve 10 times as much. Also there are the sacrefices (eg moving away from famly for work, not seeing kids etc - dh sees the kids now whenhe is working fro mhome but didn't for years when they were small as he had to leave before they got up and if he got home at all it was way after bed time. We choose to make thse sacrefices but we would not choose to pay huge taxes to go on benefits. Yes some beenfits maybe, and yes if you really cannot work but not just to people who can't see why they shoudl work because they would be "no better off" - why should anyone get anything for free if they have the opton of working - even if it is for the same money?

"Why should I pay for a bunch of quadriplegics just to sit around?"

:o :o :o

Now THAT is something I thought I'd never read on MN.

cory interestingly I know a quadriplegic :) he works as a computer programmer (using a mouth attachment to hit the keys) and yes he does also get help to pay for the vast amount of care he needs but he also works

I have two friends that are quadrepleigic. They both work, but they get benefits as well, and neither of them are able to work FT. They are both amazing, awe inspiring people.

Just thought I should let that be know. Just because they can only move their heads does not make them completely useless to society.

Agree with most of what you say, Stuckinthemiddle... and certainly that life is a journey not a destination.

I also agree that I wouldn't want a life on benefits. I have never, ever heard anyone say that they aspire to their own children living a life on benefits either. Parents who are on benefits themselves (and I talk to a fair few, as a teacher) say that they want something better for their children.

But it is a reasonable question to look at why things have gone so badly wrong, and why so many young people (even while their parents are desperately wanting something better for them) end up feeling that they are penalised for working hard, studying, going on to University etc. And why is it so bloody hard for people on the minimum wage? Why do low paid people end up no better off than people on benefits? And why do people on reasonable incomes often end up hardly better off, after they've paid every single bill out of their own wages, including the highest childcare in Europe?

Also, I think that while someone made the point earlier that it's worthwhile living the frugal life when you're starting out, for the sake of the eventual payback, I also think this is another way in which people feel let down. When DH and I were starting out, we lived in a series of cold, unheated, dingy flats. That was in our early years of working - not just as students. And when we had three young children, and were spending thousands on childcare, we really struggled. But we did it all with a longer term view.

However, the Govts have moved the goalposts so many times, that people no longer have faith that there will be a payback. Study at Uni and rack up the debt, and hey ho, you'll probably join the unemployment queue. Pay loads into a pension - and hey ho, there won't be enough funds left to pay out. Oh and while we're at it, let's keep everyone working a few years longer. Save hard, buy your own house? Let's tax you to buggery when you die. On the house that you bought with your taxed wages in the first place! And don't get me started on those of us who dare to stay married and work! Just when you've got over the expense of childcare, you get the shock of post 16 education!

Is it any wonder that many people, who have worked hard, and been frugal and sensible, feel they've been sold a lie?

I repeat: I do not think people on benefits are living the high life (apart from the few exceptions you read about in the DM) and I would hate for myself or my children to live as dependents of the State, but I can totally understand why many working people feel on a day to day basis, that they hardly see any financial advantage to working

You don't have to budget better so others sit around and do nothing. You have to budget better so you can save up for the things that you want. It has FA to do with someone else whose income and debts you don't really know about having a pile of toys from an unknown source. If you go to a boot sale or a church or school fete then you can walk away with armfulls of toys for a few quid. Someone else having kerplunk and you not doesn't mean that people on benefits have a bigger income than a higher rate taxpayer. I work hard and I haven't been on holiday since 1999 and its not because I am single handedly supporting people on benefits, it because I'm prioritising my pension and mortgage and savings and insurance, but thats my choice. I don't get to choose what other people spend their money on and neither do you.

" How does he work LESS hard than someone else just because he earns less? I fail to understand that concept?"

That's because you're not on board with the logic of meritocracy.

I'll let you in on it

"meritocracy" is the belief that doing well and earning a lot of money is the PROOF that you have "merit" and therefore deserve a lot of money because of all your hard work.

"Begs the question!" I hear you cry. And I will give you the intellectually robust reply:

"You're just jealous. What other people make shouldn't come into it. Be happy with your lot like a good little serf"

That's why I didn't mention salary. Anyone CAN fell fed up that they are working hard and still not getting what they want. But, well, shit's tough all over.

I just don't buy that Soggy. The differentials between groups and jobs are too big if you look at it in an idealistic way. We are all cogs in the working system, and we all depend on each other. We need people to do the less glamorous or well paid jobs. Society would fall apart without them. Anyway I think we digress a little.

Peoples salaries have almost nothing to do with how hard they work. They have a lot more to do with the scarcity of their skills.

". I have never, ever heard anyone say that they aspire to their own children living a life on benefits either. "

That's because people who think a life on benefits is perfectly acceptable and bring their children up to expect nothing else don't talk about "aspirations".

FFS

Not that I blame people who can see perfectly well that they are better off never bothering because the jobs that they are ever likely to get have such poor terms and conditions.

The thing that's insulting is that those people are stupid or lazy, when in fact they are doing as they are told and maximising their own financial interest.

Partly housing costs. Also childcare. Also paying for your children the other end, post 16.
And transport. Getting to work costs us thousands every year.

I'd love to live in a meritocracy.