to think that some women collude in the infantilization of men and to wonder ^why?^

[seeker]

There are SOOOO many threads along the lines of "Where do you buy your dp's clothes?" "Oh, I never take dp shopping with me""What shall I cook for the freezer for dp to eat while I'm having the baby"

WHY????????????

my DH is crap around the house, but my gift to the next generation is teaching my sons to do household tasks competently (and that it is their responsibility too).

he cant do DIY either so you cant put it down to a gender thing, his dad completely failed to teach him any practical skills that he may have had....

"above all else, we prioritise differently."

Hmmmm. This is fine - unless prioritizing differently means prioitizing the football over cooking the children's tea.

Having been on the receiving end of constant and unwarranted criticism of my housekeeping and child caring skills for many years, from my neatfreak exH (who nevertheless undercooked food and ruined laundry) I have to say it's not very nice living in a house where your contribution is so unappreciated, never enough, etc.

Having said that, how hard is it to not use neat bleach in the washing machine on coloured clothes? Or check to see meat juices are running clear before serving?

maighdlin - when you starting going out with your DH was he always in sludge brown then? Presumably if so it didn't bother you enough not to marry him? Or is this something that's 'happened' to him? In which case, why?

Susi, I'm interested by your last post. Surely when women make a decision to marry a man, there are many things which they have to consider. I think it would be very hard to find a man who is "perfect" so most women will have to put up with some imperfections in their men (and vice versa).

If you met someone who was intelligent, kind, interesting, etc but always wore sludge brown, would that be enough reason not to marry him/move in with him?

If I met said sludge brown wearer, I'd think well, this is how he is and there we go. I wouldn't attempt to change folk - it always ends in tears.

I'm with Snorbs- I split up with ex and found out the house didn't fall down with me doing less housework- and don't start me on knives,forks,spoons or not hanging the washing out properly.(it still drys)
I even stirred the gravy wrong once.

Well there you are Gay40, that's very sensible - and it does answer the question so often asked on these threads. Why did you marry/move in with him in the first place. Many of us are well aware our dhs/dps have flaws, and it's well nigh impossible to find anyone perfect. So we either have to accept them as they are (which for some of us means we do end up doing all the domestic stuff) or live on our own. Not all of us have the choice of lots of men to choose from. I met dh in my 30s, having had very few previous relationships. With the shift work I did, it was hard enough to meet any men, let alone ones who were also a) available, b) remotely attractive in one way or another and c) interested in me. To ask for one that was also interested in domestic matters would have been pushing it. And I did know that he wasn't good at doing domestic stuff when I met him. It's not that he doesn't do it because he expects me to do it - he wouldn't do it anyway.

Gay40 - exactly. SoMuchToBits - no, it wouldn't be. But nor would I take over his clothes shopping either! I just don't understand it when women (as that's what the thread is about) try to change men - not that I know this is what's happening in this case. But that's not accepting someone's imperfections.

Believe me, there's not a lot of women to choose from, either. But you get what you settle for.

When you meet someone you learn about what you like about them and what you can't stand. Then weigh it up and decide whether it is worth sticking with. But moaning and trying to change the things you can't stand about the other person: pointless.
When my friends witter on about "oh he just watches the football all weekend" I ask if he did this when they met. If they say yes, I tell them to stfu.

SoMuchToBits - so, you would rather set up house with someone you KNOW won't do anything to help, than be alone? I don't know - that seems to smack of a lack of self-respect almost. Why is expecting a man (and certainly one of a similar age to you, in his 30s) to be interested in domestic matters pushing it? Of course everyone has flaws but in setting up home together a lack of interest in domestic issues is pretty important, isn't it?

I'm not criticising you for not wanting to be alone - I know I would hate it - maybe I have been lucky.

sorry, that was very inarticulate and a lot more critical sounding that I meant to be - am genuinely interested. Self-respect isn't quite what I meant - maybe insecure (I say this as someone how is very insecure and to prove the point married the first person who came along as I thought no-one else ever would , even though he was Mr Wrong For Me - he was very good around the house though!).

I do see what you mean Gay40, but I do think with some things (like watching football all weekend) it's the sort of thing that a lot of men will do when a young bachelor, but when they have a partner/wife, and more importantly when they become a father, they accept that they have to compromise a bit.

For example, when I met dh he would spend a lot of weekends out playing music. That was fine at that stage, because I could either come along and listen or not, depending on what I was doing. But after ds was born, it wasn't usually practical for me to go along and take ds, so it meant I would be stuck at home with ds (having looked after him all week when dh was at work) while dh went out and enjoyed himself. Of course, the sensible compromise would be for dh to cut down on the activities he did, but still do some, so he had some time doing his own things, and for me also to go and do my own things sometimes while dh looked after ds.

The reality was that during the week, we would each have an evening out doing an activity we wanted while the other would stay in with ds (so far so good). But at weekends dh would have far more activities on than I would. I suppose that's just because I would hesitate to be out so much and leave ds, where it didn't seem to bother dh so much.

I never get why women write Christmas cards and buy presents for their DP's family members. DP's family don't get cards or presents because he can't be arsed to send any. Mine do, because I can be arsed. I hate Christmas shopping - why do women persist in this charade of 'doing' Christmas for everyone?

I buy DHs clothes etc. but only because I have better taste know what is wearable. He is fabulous cook and uses his talents all the time. Also he irons his own shirts - and mine.

"Why did you marry/move in with him in the first place."

Actually a lot of men don't start to infantilise themselves until the first baby arrives.

That's usually the point at which the power balance changes. That's when some men suddenly lose the ability to tell the difference between a wool wash and a 50 degree and start competing with the baby for Mommy's attention. (I use the word Mommy deliberately, to make you all cringe.)

In the early days I was walking past a really lovely row of terraced house and I suggested the ideal state for a perfect partnership would be to have adjoining houses. DH was and is still really upset about this but I keep threatening that when we build the extension we'll have his n her front doors.

I love him but he choses to infantalise himself, which I regularly take him to task over.

With the birth of first child, I was high on happy oxytocin love hormones and the domestic shit landed squarely in my lap, when I stopped breast feeding, the scales seem to fall from my eyes and I felt really angry about how he had taken advantage of me.

On Sunday he cooked the most disorganised, cold, piecemeal cooked breakfast you can imagine I wonder if it's a subconscious long term game plan to shift the entire burden onto me.
I don't get a kick out of his dependance games and would actual feel free to love him more and do more tasks if he cut the crap.

It might sound like that should have gone in the things I want to say in RL thread but I've already balled him out about it tonight.

Truckulent - stirring the gravy wrong? You utter bastard

That's an interesting question Susi.

My background is as follows - I had a (not very serious) boyfriend for a few months when I was about 15. Then another for only a few months when I was 21. Then no-one until I was 25. So I spent a lot of time on my own. I had a few friends, but many of them did have boyfriends (especially the ones I met after I left university at 21) so they didn't often have much time to spend with me. I then met my ex when I was 25. Although I quite liked him as a friend, I should probably never have gone out with him, but he obviously really liked me, and I was so fed up of spending all my time alone I think I went out with him really mostly for the company. It was quite an unhappy relationship.

Eventually I did split with him, and met dh, who was much more my sort of person. But I was by then in my 30s (we married when I was 35) and by then I realised that if I didn't settle down with someone my chances of having any children would be quite slim. I think if I had never wanted children I would have been a lot more happy to live on my own. I also know that now I have ds, I can't imagine life without him.

You mention self-respect and security - that's something I think maybe I don't have a great deal of. I always feel I'm not good enough, and that other people around me are better at things/more successful etc. I think this maybe partly stems from the fact that my Mum was quite critical about most things. Also, my older sister was amazingly intelligent and I could never really measure up to that (not her fault, she's lovely) but I do struggle a bit with thinking I'm worth much.

Donkey derby, the reason I send stuff to dh's family is because he wouldn't bother. That would be fine if he was only sending stuff from him. But I think it's normal i most families to send a card/present that's from you all as a family (e.g. dh, dw and dcs)

I feel if we don't send anything it does partly reflect on me, because the gift isn't solely from dh IYSWIM. As dh's family always send me something for my birthday and Christmas, I would feel it unreasonable never to send anything to them.

I do not feel as though DP's lack of sending Christmas cards or presents to her family in any way reflects on me, our cohesion as a family unit or our commitment to each other.
I don't explain it, excuse it or laugh it off. It simply isn't my situation to deal with. She's always been that way, and probably always will.

Ah, I think that's where I have a problem then, as I always think that if I don't send stuff to dh's family it will reflect badly on me, and they will think it is my fault as much as his. Maybe I take stuff too personally, and when people are critical I assume they are being critical of me, whereas maybe they are just generally having a grumble. I do often feel responsible if other people are unhappy though - I feel like if they are telling me about it, it must be because they expect me to do something about it. Whereas I probably don't mention a lot of my problems to other people as I don't want to "burden" them IYSWIM>

Genuine friends won't think it's a burden at all. It's not your job to make anyone happy apart from yourself.

I know that looking at it logically, that is true, but I always seem to feel guilty if other people are unhappy.

For example if dh is ill and complains about it, I feel guilty that he is ill and I am not. If I'm ill I try to play it down, because it often seems to put him in a bad mood, and then I feel it's my fault he's not happy.

Bloomin heck! Care a bit less x