to think the teacher could have stopped ds from walking out of school this morning?

[whoops]

I have a few issue with ds and his behaviour and this morning was one of those mornings where he wanted to kick off.

I caught him swearing at another child and then he swore at me. I told him that he wouldn't be going to football this evening (this incident was football related) he then starts punching me as I'm taking him into school.

As we get through the doors he sits himself down and makes lots of noise. Teacher on the door tells him not to sit there and behave like that while other children are going into school. I pick him up and start taking him towards the classroom.

One of his class teachers has come to see what is going on at this point. Ds then starts hitting and kicking me so I put him down and teacher gets hold of him for me. Ds then breaks free and heads out of the School past the teacher on the door who stands there and watches. I complained that she could have stopped him but I was told he was my responsibility as I was in the school dealing with him.

Thankfully he stopped before getting to the main gates but we live on a main road which he has to cross 3 other main roads to get to so if he decided that was what was going to do I dread to think what would happen to him.

AIBU to think the teacher could have helped a little but stopping him from leaving the school?

YABU. You need to take your DS to see someone about his anger management, maybe start with your GP? You cannot blame the teacher for the actions you have described.

Teachers CAN restrain and contain but it would not be appropriate in this circumstance.

thenightsky - children in a heightened or stressed state will generally not put themselves in danger, if anything they do the opposite they revert to what is safe and known. Some SEN or SN will impact on this but it is very unusual for NT children to harm themselves.

People have given constructive advice, LaWeasel:

to push hard for a diagnosis, to have a meeting with the school to spell out the boy's particular needs, to ask for a referral to an EdPsych

to me this looks like a real problem that needs dealing with in a more constructive and longterm way than just preventing the boy from leaving the school

a 9yo boy who hits his mother in public is actually a little unusual, not to mention a 9yo that you would pick up ("Teacher on the door tells him not to sit there... I pick him up and start taking him towards the classroom")- it all sounds either like a much younger child or a child with SN

I would ask for a meeting with the school SENCO, for referral to ed. psych., for referral to CAHMS, for whatever it takes really

try not to get disheartened because you have been dismissed once or twice; sadly, many parents with SN children have to keep pushing

yes restrain and contain proportionate to situation,reasonable force,but perhaps him leaving was safest option

If the OP had started a thread entitled "AIBU to ask for your help in managing my son's behaviour" I'd have more sympathy.

I agree scottish mummy - just think it's a pity that some posters are continuing to perpetrate the myth that teachers can't touch students.

I'd like to add that my son who I had problems with for years was diagnosed with hypothyroidism at age 13yr. Horrible symptoms for an adult but especially for a kid who cannot explain how they're feeling and having to learn stuff all day.

I second the advice to seek help. I came back yesterday from time with the child psych and I cant tell you how much better I feel. There is a certain amount of truth in Limaras comments BUT it is also true that if your son has a condition like adhd, which my son has, you need specific advice on minimising the symptoms and he needs additional support from an expert to help manage his anger.

Wow. There is a huge amount of misinformation going about on this thread.

Just to clarify- ANY teacher can restrain a child, in ANY school; not just PRUs/SEN/EBD schools.

Teachers- ALL teachers- have had the power to restrain children for years- in fact, by doing nothing, ie not physically intervening in a fight, or fetching somebody who is willing to physically intervene, you can be sued for negligence. Any 'no touch policy' is erroneous, and leaves children vulnerable and staff at risk of litigation and dismissal.

In the OP's case, had her son run into the road, the teacher could have been sued for negligence for having done nothing to stop him.

I am a teacher, and train other teachers in positive handling (restraint). I have taught in mainstream, SN and EBD settings. The problems arise when teachers are not properly trained to physically intervene- not only do they not know how, but do not know when it is appropriate to do so; and when it's not. Is it appropriate to physically prevent a child leaving a classroom? Sometimes, yes. If they are going after another child to beat them up for example. If you believe they will harm themselves or others, then yes. Because they didn't follow your instruction, then no. Deal with it later.

The legislation needs to be clarified. Presently, a teacher can restrain a pupil if:

-A child is injuring others

-A child is injuring themselves

-A child is damaging property

-A child is behaving in a way that is likely to disrupt good order.

Any physical intervention taken must be reasonable, proportionate and necessary.

This means that if a pupil is charging at another holding a knife, you are justified in rugby tackling them to the ground- if they are verbally abusing you, you are not.

The vague definitions do not help- 'damaging property' could mean smashing a window; it could also mean snapping a pencil in two. Legally, you could restrain a child for this, but ethically? It would be completely inappropriate. The legislation relies on teachers' judgements of what is reasonable, proportionate and necessary, and there is rarely any provision to train them to effectively make that kind of decision.

As a teacher, you have a duty of care to keep children safe, and act in loco parentis.

This does not mean that you are required to restrain a child, but that you cannot do nothing. Even fetching someone else to help is something.

Sorry to waffle on, but am staggered by the number of posters who think that teachers legally cannot restrain children- not having a go; many teachers think this too, but it is incorrect.

OP- YANBU. The teacher had a legal duty to help prevent your son from endangering himself- even if that involved getting someone else to help. Doing nothing is negligent.

Great post tethersend - however I have to disagree on your final point. I don't feel a 9 year old walking out of school with parent in pursuit would pose a significant risk or harm to himself or others. Hence the teacher was right to not stop him.

lots of cans in that post - the schools I am familiar make sure that teachers do not restrain a child from leaving the premises physically - but they will contact parents and police

a no-touch policy unless actual physical harm occurring ie breaking up a fight

Tethersend, teachers are in loco parentis, the actual parent was there. Just because I am a reacher and can restrain dies not mean they should restrain

once again, agree with londonone

it all comes down to one's definition of significant risk or harm

That's the thing though, londonone- it's down to our judgement isn't it? I have spent many years teaching students with EBD, and I can envisage a very upset little boy running into the road. If the teacher just watched him go by and did nothing- and he got hit by a car- then he could be sued for not having taken action.

bulby, I said that- "This does not mean that you are required to restrain a child, but that you cannot do nothing. Even fetching someone else to help is something."

Fair point about parent being there, though. This offers more protection for the teacher- although at the point he ran out of the gates, his mother wasn't with him, so teacher still vulnerable.

I would like to see clearer legislation coupled with a comprehensive package of positive handling training which ensures that teachers know when and how it is appropriate to physically intervene- and when it isn't.

I cross posted a bit Cory.

There is good advice here.

Whether or not your DS does turn out to have SN, or whether it is a case of changes needed at home, being pro active and looking for advice is a really good idea.

I agree tethersend - I suppose the fact that OP said walking rather than running influenced my view and also the fact that AFAIK this child has no SEN or SN, therefore based on the info the teacher seems to have made a fare judgement. Had the child a history of having no road sense or SNs then I would view it differently The joy of that word reasonable. We obviously have a very similar line of work!

Indeed... and in the same town too judging by your username! Hang on... are you my boss?

Doubtful! I am not nearly that important!

tethersend, we have been advised by our school that if we try and restrain, the child struggles and then runs off we are not to give chase - if they run into the road and get hit by a car we could be blamed for chasing them into the road.

I have huge sympathy with the OP but I would not take that risk - even if I wasn't blamed I would blame myself .

It is a very very hard situation to be in and agree with those who advocate seeking help. The OP's post should have been in education rather than AIBU then she may not have attracted so much criticism for slating a teacher. We get a bit tired of it .

No, I wouldn't chase- but I wouldn't watch a 9 year old child run out of school gates and do nothing either. It's the doing nothing part which worries me.

I think the guidelines are so woolly and open to interpretation that many teachers are afraid to restrain unless there is a very real and obvious threat of injury to someone. Tethersend makes a good point - I wonder how many teachers have had proper training in this area (I know my school hasn't done this in the last 7 years, we have been left to find out/keep abreast of the situation ourselves) In a way the teacher did you a favour - had they attempted to restrain the child and been injured as a result of the child lashing out at them in anger your child would be in much more serious trouble than he already is.

Look at the number of posts on MN insisting that a teacher is being unreasonable for everything from stopping a precocious infant from yodelling on the carpet during story time to holding hands to control a KS2 child, to reprimanding a child with the parent present.
Translate that into a series of continuous complaining to the Head, and you create a climate of fear and uncertainty within a profession, every complaint has to be investigated, no matter how trivial.
So if I thought there was a danger, I would block an exit, but not physically hold a child in any way. If they shoved past me, I'd have done what I considered appropriate.
I have stopped an infant from leaving, not realising mother was a playground's length away and allowing the child to go down the road and wait at the corner.
She scolded me in front of other parents, because the child had her permission and I should have listened to a 6 year old.
Why should I put up with that sort of crap and worse if I restrain a NT 9 YO and am judged to be in the wrong?
Where is my safeguarding and protection for me?

This is the last tome I am going to post on this thread.

There has been issues for some time with ds's behaviour. I have been asking for help for at least 3 years and even after him being disruptive, abusive, locking himself in cupboards, walking out of school, fighting which are just some of the problems hw has had. He has been seen by a mental health team twice, his class teacher is now the senco and still there is apparently nothing that can be diagnosed.

Yes I am at the end of my tether and not sure what else I can do when I don't see any other child behaving like this.

I wasn't blaming the teacher or the school for his behaviour, I just felt that as the teacher was aware that I was having problems that she may have been able to stop or call after him before I got to the door. As for me wearing heels, they aren't high tottering heels but unfortunatly I have to work and I don't think my employer would be impressed with me turning up in my trainers because of the offchance I may have to run after my son that morning

I now know by the judgement of mumsnet I am a bad mother and it's all my fault ds is the way he is.

Maybe one day some miracle will happen and I will find the right support

sounds like there are lots of issues and i hope you get helpsoon. i dont thin its helpful apportioning blame to yourself or the teacher, its something that happened that perhaps neither of you were able to deal with at the time

good luck