A good job there aren't many men on MN

[Truckulent]

I think men would be shocked at the level of resentment leveled at them on MN. Almost a seething mass of contempt at times.

I'm a man, been on here for years. And I was surprised by it.

AIBU to think it's a good job there aren't many men on here, or would more men posting help men and women understand each other better?

Feminism is the reason that if your DH walks out on you tomorrow DP you will still have a home to live in.

Locotitis - From my own experience, I have to disagree. I endured an abusive relationship for 5 years. I normalised the behaviour I experienced from my partner. It didn't happen overnight and it was sporadic but it was often enough to affect me and my performance in work severely. However, it was only after I'd got out of it that I realised that it was oppressive and abusive.

I also didn't recognise that the two times that I pushed over by strangers in the street and grabbed in the breasts and crotch, once when I was 12 and the other when at university, were actually sexual assaults. I thought they were just "something that happened to women".

I thought that it was normal that my ex went to strip clubs and thought that there must be something wrong with me, so I started looking into cosmetic surgery and taking up pole dancing classes (til I came to my senses).

I thought that the time that a guy with no experience was brought in to work at the same level as me, with 5 years post accountancy qualification experience, was annoying but one of those things. I complained to my boss but was silenced. It was only when I was leaving that I was told by the head of HR that I could have taken out an equal pay claim.

My 2 brothers were always treated with more deference than I was. As an example, I found myself ironing their shirts in my early 20s to help my mum out because, if I hadn't done it, she would have done it (2 able bodied young men in their 20s with a disabled mother, asleep in bed on a Sunday evening. When I questioned this with my mum, she told me not to do it if I didn't but I knew that, if I didn't, she would).

However, as I said, it was only the abusive relationship and the realisations that I had afterwards, that made me 'come out' as a feminist and identify with its aims, and I recognise that mine is a relatively privileged life.

I think that anyone who doesn't know what feminism has done for them should watch "The Duchess". We'd still be there now if it wasn't for the brave feminists (men and women) who fought for women's rights.

I'm not denying other women anything, if you want to work 100 hours a week and see your child for half an hour every other day, then all power to you.
And I'm rolling my eyes at "traditionally expected" - did feminism create a microwave baby or something? do women still not give birth and breastfeed in the traditional way?

Locotitis - if you don't know a choice exists how can you choose it? I agree it is high-handed to dismiss those women disagreeing with feminism or viewing feminism as having had it's day because surely we're all equal now, but a baby girl abandoned on a mountainside for not being a son, or a rape victim having her previous sex life called into evidence do not have choices. Oppression is an emotive word and maybe suggests a level of institutionalised servitude which we might believe women are free from, but I think what it actually means is freedom from oppression is to remove all barriers to choice and autonomy. If a woman has been discriminated against for having small children when applying for a job - but it not aware of it - is it right to say she hasn't been discriminated against? No, she just isn't aware of it to be able to assert her legal rights even if they exist. The fact that it happened remains, despite her lack of awareness. If a woman in a DV relationship believes she deserves the beatings, do we think, ah well if she thinks that, we must too? I doubt very many people would agree wit that.

daftpunk Tue 23-Nov-10 11:52:17
I'm not denying other women anything, if you want to work 100 hours a week and see your child for half an hour every other day, then all power to you.
And I'm rolling my eyes at "traditionally expected" - did feminism create a microwave baby or something? do women still not give birth and breastfeed in the traditional way?

How about working practices that allow women to take a decent break if they need to without losing a lifetime's effort they placed in their career? Your narrow view is totally exposed DP, you forget that work and policy is thought up by men and so excludes working practices that suit women better, they suit men with or without children.

'I disagree with people who say women who work are less happy. Women who are stupid enough to tolerate or enable sexism at home and end up diong a second shift may not be happy but more fool them for tolerating that. Most sensible women now and in the past have not accepted unfair deals. They need the Xenia weekend course in how to ensure a fair and equitable life... I just invented it.'

Too right, Xenia. I'd be happy to market that course.

'daftpunk Tue 23-Nov-10 10:56:38
I can't think of anything worse than the world being run by women - really, I can't.'

I can! A world run by people like you.

Feminism: the radical notion that women are people.

Look, if I was a man I wouldn't expect my wife to go out to work if we had a baby/ young children. I'd work my bollocks off to make sure she didn't have to leave the baby. I'd never marry a feminist. I'd be too nice for them.

'do women still not give birth and breastfeed in the traditional way?' interesting point DP - could be argued in the 1950s that the majority of women no longer did this but had their babies in hospital and formula fed their infants as both were 'better'.

What if she wanted to go out to work and hire someone to do the childcare? Does that make her not a nice person then?

DP - why do you assume I work 100 hour weeks or see my baby for half an hour a day? Where does that assumption come from. Did you choose to stay at home because that's what you think combining working with being a mother necessarily entails. It really doesn't have to you know - you might have more choices than you realise? This is not a SAHM v WOHM debate - if anything, it is a SAHM AND WOHM debate. I'm working from home today (hmmm...yes must get on and stop posting but have become embroiled) and my son will be in the creche this afternoon and back with me by 5.30pm. Presumably your children don't leave your sight/side at all times because that's what being a good mother is?

Roll away - sneering doesn't help back up your point made earlier that you're very able to participate in intelligent debate on anything and everything - I guess up until the point when you disagree and then rolling your eyes is all you have left!

Feminism did not create microwave babies but it has helped establish and extend maternity leave, put in place health and safety measures to safeguard pregnant and breastfeeding mothers who choose to work, enact flexible working, enshrine indirect discrimination in law, the list goes on...so that if women choose to work they can also work out a way to bring balance to their lives. There's still a long way to go.

Ok, on the overthrowing/revolution comments directed at me by larry.

Feminism as a political movement is actually quite straightforward. Oddly, lots of people have really weird and quite ignorant ideas about what feminism on the whole means.

Feminists want women to not be discriminated against because of their sex. Feminists wish to see the end of world wide gendered violence that harms and oppresses women (as a social group). At the moment women (as a group) are discriminated against. They are discriminated against because we live under a male dominated system - this system is known as a patriarchy. Both men and women are both advantaged and disadvantaged by the patriarchal system. Because a patriarchal system is male dominated, men (as a social group) have access to more political and economic power than women (as a social group). Such a set up privileges men (as a group) and disadvantages women (as a group). Within this system are other systems which affect a person's power, privilege and status (commonly the colour of one's skin and the socio-economic group one has been born into).

Feminists think this is unjust and should be changed - they think women should be allowed to vote and have equal parliamentary representation for example.

Feminists do not want to replace a patriarchal system with a matriarchal system. Feminists wish men and women to be treated equally in political terms, despite their biological differences. (A bit like how black people think they should be treated the same as white people but that does not mean that black people wish to take over the world and oppress white people - the secret is in the word 'equality').

Feminists do not think all man rape - insisting that this is what a feminist is saying because she thinks rape is a gendered issue is ignorant and obtuse.

Continuing to insist the above when loads of feminists have taken the time to explain their politics and views is bizarre and suggests will-full misinterpretation and representation.

But then I think we have had this conversation before Larry, no?

I, too, found the comment about women running the country rather saddening. There have been a handful of women in politics compared to huge numbers of men and they will have their good and bad points as men will. To say that that's representative of how all women would be equivalent to saying that who wants the country run by men because they're all like Jeffrey Archer and Boris Johnson, for example!

My own accountancy body recently published a report called "Breaking Glass" which found that companies do better when the ratio of men to women on boards and exec teams is more equal.

CIMA report-Here's a link to it

"Look, if I was a man I wouldn't expect my wife to go out to work if we had a baby/ young children. I'd work my bollocks off to make sure she didn't have to leave the baby. I'd never marry a feminist. I'd be too nice for them."

My DP doesn't expect me to go out to work. He appreciates that prior to having children I was lucky enough to find an area of academic study I loved and did well at and was ultimately able to pursue a career in because I had parents who felt my education was as important as my brothers. He also appreciates that I love my son more than anything in the world (including him! but he would say the same!) and so between us, as equal parents we both need to find a way that we can both do jobs we love and be with our son. The advent of change in working practices over the past 25 years means that for a lot of people, this is now a real choice. For an awful lot of people ,it is not. Feminism takes on the challenge of changing that.

Expat:
I wouldn't marry a woman who wanted to leave our children with someone else. I'd expect her to look after them. She's the mother.
do you pay another man to father and look after your children?

Just to be clear;

As we are currently in a situation where women (as a group) and men (as a group) are not considered and treated on equal terms, achieving equality will require change.

As men (as a group) have more (gendered) privilege than women (as a group), a change that entails women having a more equal share of things will, logically and inarguably, mean that men (as a group) will have to relinquish some of the privilege that have acquired (as a group) through being advantaged by a male dominated system.

If more women are to represent the population in parliament, logically that means fewer men will be MPs. Such a situation is not being 'against men' or for male oppression - it is being for equality and human rights for all humans.

BDJ: I'm sorry I rolled my eyes at you - ( very childish - apologies) .... It's been a pleasure talking to you.

'do you pay another man to father and look after your children?'

My husband was a SAHD for 4 years. The money I earned from work was ours.

I was a woman before I became a mother. I'm still one now I am.

I don't see at which point I morphed into being only a 'mother' which means my role in life is to stay at home because my reproductive system works.

What an odd idea, considering that worldwide, most women still work at some type of paid job after having children, even if it's growing food to sell, running a market, etc.

Jess.

This idea of saying that dealing with rape/domestic violence costs X and, if we could eliminate it, we could spend the money on Y is just far too utopian.

If we could eliminate all bad behaviour (child neglect, poor parenting etc etc), of course we would be richer. However, human beings of both sexes have some examples who are far from perfect and that, unfortunately, requires the state to intervene.

larry - do you think men in general are concerned that some women (1 in 4) are sexually abused by men, suffer DV at the hands of some men - or do you think they are not as bothered as women in general are?

Do you think men in general only become concerned when it is a female relative that is affected by it?

What percentage of men do we think make jokes about rape/ sexual abuse/ domestic violence?

what????

Harriet Harman did all she could to destroy the traditional family and wouldn't have been happy until we were all living in bi-sexual communes.

& The least said about Diane Abbott the better.