not to have sex with DH?

[lotswife]

My libido's been a bit crap since DC3 was born. I used to be up for it loads, but it got harder and harder to get turned on/in the mood - needed more effort on DH's part which he just didn't put in.

We had some talks about it as he was feeling rejected and unloved and I was feeling hassled and like he was only interested in sex.

He said he'd try to make more of an effort to make me feel desired (rather than like a blow up doll - his idea of foreplay was just to grab my tits or my bits and then expect me to be ready and waiting).

Then there were two incidents which really shook me. About 6 months ago I was asleep in DC2's bed (she'd been crying and I'd gone to soothe her and fallen asleep). DC2 had woken up and climbed over me to go and play with the other DCs. DH came to find me - and I woke up with him pulling up my nightie and parting my buttocks. I said 'what are you doing?' - but quietly as I thought DC1 was asleep in the other bed (v disoriented). He said "you're very wet, so I thought I'd take advantage" and put his cock in me! I shoved him away and we had a huge row.

I thought it was totally inappropriate (even though the DCs weren't in the room), and he kept saying that I was wet so he thought I wanted it (wanted what?! I was asleep). I felt really dirty and disgusting and like DH didn't respect me at all as a person.

We barely had sex after that. I just had no desire towards him at all. Then last week he was hassling me again - I was just about to drop off to sleep and he was a bit tipsy after a work night out - and I said I wasn't in the mood and he said I was never in the mood and it wasn't a marriage without sex.

I said that it was hard to fancy someone who'd just stick their cock in their sleeping wife. He said I was making excuses.

We've barely talked since. AIBU?

No thesecondcoming, I haven't said you need written consent.

I've said quite clearly, that if couples have agreed that she doesn't mind being penetrated while asleep, that's fine - it's up to them how they organise their sex lives. Why would you translate that as meaning that I think they need a signed affidavit every time they want to shag?

Exactly what thesecondcoming said. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

PamelaF, I think you've articulated a hang up people have about rape.

They are scared of it. Because it's a crime, a big crime, supposedly a terrible crime, they don't want to name it when it happens.

Which is why they prefer to imagine rapists as strange men hiding in alleyways, when in fact mostly, they're husbands, partners and good mates. They imagine that if rape has happened, then that implies, police, court, prison.

When in fact that isn't what happens at all. What usually happens, is that women tell themselves it wasn't rape, or it was their fault, or they asked for it, or it was just a misunderstanding, and they should move on and forget about it.

Calling it rape doesn't mean you have to call the police, if that's not what you want or if that's not appropriate for your relationship. But I'm damned if I'll sit here on this thread, read a clear description of rape and then not contradict a whole load of rape apologists who come on and deny that it is rape.

And HerBeatitude you trying ever harder to provoke me when you know nothing whatsoever about my feminist views (or any other of my views), won't change anything.

thesecondcoming, if he says no and she continues to do it, then yes, legally she has sexually assaulted him.

The law says so, not me. Is the law rabid too?

Why are you all so afraid of naming sexual assault and rape? Is it because you think that the man in question should call the police if his lover has sexually assaulted him?

I'm tempted to suggest the OP shoves a dildo up her DH's arse while he's asleep (that was her own idea), just to see if he considers it a violation when he wakes up.

Yeah, the bit before he stuck his knob in could be seen as just misreading the signs etc. and not assault. But she said 'what are you doing?' which is not a very positive response. And he didn't give her a chance to respond before he did it

peering I'm not trying to provoke you.

I am arguing against your damaging denial of the reality of rape.

The law states quite clearly that what the OP experienced, is called rape.

You are uncomfortable with the law. I didn't make the law. On the whole, women didn't make the law - men did. Male law experts decided on the definition of rape, not me. I expect they had all borrowed our stash of dungarees that day.

Hmmmm...

I sincerely hope that some of you posters do not work in the police force or prosecution services,, you seem to be very miss informed on what constitutes rape.

Go look it up please FGS.

It seems a lot of you think that just because it wasn't violent, or that it was her husband means its not rape.

facts from op:

She was asleep, check!

He parted her buttocks whilst she was asleep, check!

OP didn't give a positive response on being woken up, check!

He stated that he would take advantage because of her wetness, check!

He put his penis into her before op could vocally object, check!

OP shoved her husband away, and felt 'dirty' and 'disgusting' after incident, Check!

WTF else can i do to make you see it for what it bloody is.

She was asleep FGS, she definately didn't give a positive response in any way when she woke up did she?! or did i miss that?

He didn't get any form of verbal or non verbal cue to make him think that this was what she wanted.

Or am i wrong, do people still believe you have to scream and yell no to distinguish a rape from consensual sex?

what year is it? someone remind me please!

thesecondcoming, do you honestly think it is more helpful for a bunch of strangers on the internet to tell a woman who has been raped that she hasn't been?

I know that a lot of people think it's helpful to tell rape victims that they haven't been raped. I understand that you are doing so with the best of intentions. But you're wrong.

I'm not syaing the OP has to call the police or divorce her husband immediately. I just think that she shouldn't be afraid of naming what has happened, because if her and her DH don't understand what it is, then they can't solve it. Acknowledgement is the first step to overcoming a problem.

Do some of the posters here actually understand both the legal definitions of sexual assault and the actual realities? Saying that calling this horrible act 'trivialises' rape is the very attitude that actually trivialises rape - because that's the attitude that lets so many rapists and sexual abusers go free because too many people think that if an attack is not a straight-cut, obvious, vicious attack then it can't be rape.

Thesecondcoming, you talk about people not being able to see shades of grey, but I think it is you who is not able to here. There are more shades of grey when it comes to sexual assault than there are to consensual sex. Is a man attempting to penetrate his wife as she sleeps as 'bad' as a group of men pouncing on a young virgin and gang-raping her in a park (for example)? No - but does the lack of 'severity' stop it being an assault? Of course it doesn't. If an assault is very mild, does that mean it's acceptable? Because the law and anyone with a shred of decency in them doesn't see it that way.

Why do some of you think you can be self-appointed arbiters of what is 'bad' enough to constitute sexual assault? Why are people incapable of seeing the myriad levels of what constitutes assault?! And why do you think your opinions are better than the law itself, which would categorise this as assault?!

I don't deny for a second the fact that a lot of rape takes place within relationships. It just didn't sound to me, based on the necessarily limited amount of information given on this thread, that the OP was raped by her DH. For me, as I've said before, rape is an act that is based on violence, whether actual, threatened, or implied. I just don't see that in the OP's description. If the OP views it as such though, I withdraw that statement and apologise to her - I'd be interested to hear from the OP whether she feels that she was raped. I still feel that a thread that was meant to give support to someone in a shitty and difficult situation, has degenerated into a semantic bun fight.

ah, scorpette, just in time.
I was about to explode.

PS I don't think that an assault like this is mild; I was just trying to phrase it that way so I might get throught to the rape apologists.

OP I am very sorry for what has happened to you. Have read through the thread and see you are going to talk with him tonight about counselling, I hope that has gone well. Let us know as many people are obviously concerned about you.

With regard to recent posts, I have to say peering that you telling us what your DP/H thinks is of little consequence and comes over quite badly in terms of what the OP has described. The very point is that if rape in marriage were defined by men (I'm talking of men as a whole group here, not saying every man believes rape in marriage is acceptable) then rape within marriage wouldn't exist. Just as the OP's husband seems to think is the case. It's women being allowed to actually think for themselves, have opinions and respect that pushed through the change in the law.

OP has already stated that she doesn't ATM feel like it was rape, but that is the standard response in 'mild' cases of rape.

The realisation of what actually has happened can come at anytime, the longer it takes, usually the worse the reaction is.

OP needs some counselling, i think she recognises this.

Yes it is a pity that this has become a bun fight, but subjects like this are important to talk about, as we can clearly see, a lot of people still don't recognise an actual rape when discribed.

Actually a jury would decide if it was rape. Whatever delusions of grandeur MN has, it's collective "wisdom" based on a single persons posted version of events on an anonymous message board is, in fact, insufficient to determine whether a rape took place. Sorry, this is how it works. To declare otherwise shows how some people have blurred the boundaries between the Internet and real life, and truly believe that the power they have to hand down "judgment" on these boards has a corollary in real life.

"Why do some of you think you can be self-appointed arbiters of what is 'bad' enough to constitute sexual assault?"

Absolutely Scorpette - couldn't agree more! So how come you're all doing so then?