to want people to understand before judging?

[Skyrg]

AIBU to think people should understand vegetarianism before they brand it cruel?

There was a recent thread which mentioned this vaguely, but this is based on opinions I've encountered elsewhere, including real life. So it's not a thread about a thread, iyswim.
Also note I am certainly not talking about everyone, but a surprising number of people do seem to have some strange ideas.

So:
Anyone who does not eat meat or fish is a vegetarian.
Anyone who does not eat meat but eats fish is a pescetarian.
Anyone who eats no meat, fish or dairy is a vegan.
All of the above may also avoid cheese that contains rennet and anything that contains gelatine, but it's often difficult to check this so they may eat it accidentally.

It is perfectly possible to live healthily on the above diets.

Quote: Appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
www.vrg.org/nutrition/2003_ADA_position_paper.pdf

The average human being does not need to eat meat. (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them choosing to do so though).

The usual concerns of a vegetarian diet:
Low Protein
Low Iron
Low Vitamin B12
Low Omega 3
Also low Calcium in vegans

All of these can be obtained through a vegetarian diet in high enough quantities to meet the body's requirements. Most vegetarians and vegans will vary their diet deliberately to compensate for any lack there might be. This can include eating things such as seeds, nuts, chickpeas, soy, hempseeds? etc. Also vegetarians tend to eat eggs and dairy, which are good sources of various things. (We don't just eat plants).
Of course a limited vegetarian diet (e.g just eating lettuce) would not be good, but then neither would a limited meat diet (e.g just eating meat).

There are also positives of vegetarianism, but I'm concentrating on trying to dispel the negatives here. So, briefly, 'Vegetarians tend to have lower body mass index, lower levels of cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less incidence of heart disease, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, renal disease, osteoporosis, dementias such as Alzheimer?s Disease and other disorders' (shamelessly quoted from Wikipedia!). All of these are based on words like 'tend to' and 'generally' and aren't necessarily just a result of vegetarianism, but still worth mentioning for the sake of a full argument. I personally believe this is probably also down to other lifestyle choices which are also common in vegetarians.

Vegetarianism, or forms of it, are important for several religions. People have many reasons for being vegetarian, which I have no room for here. It is fine to disagree with vegetarians that killing animals is cruel, or bad for the environment, or whatever they believe. However, it is very important that people know it is not a harmful diet.

So, AIBU to get quite miffed when people think it's cruel to bring a child up vegetarian?
The usual argument is 'you don't give them a choice'. Well ofc you bloody don't, they can't usually analyse it and discuss it when you start weaning them! If it bothers them, they can choose to eat meat when they're older. Just like children who are brought up to eat meat (surely they're forced as well, if we're talking about forcing) can later become vegetarian.

I expect this has been done before, so sorry for that, but I'm sort of hoping that at least one person may find out something they didn't know.

At 6 my son decided not to eat meat - a steep learning curve for me. 20 years later he still does not eat meat. His choice - he's 6ft and very strong. Obviously I got it right!

Interesting LadyThumb, what were his reasons?

I know it's actually not that rare for weaning children to completely refuse meat, not sure why that is either. Texture, taste? At that age it's probably not the animal rights .

Sounds like you did very well, I imagine it's quite difficult if it comes as a surprise!

My daughter stopped eating meat and fish after a (very young) teacher who she adored told her all about why she shouldn't eat all those things.

The teacher swanned off to another school at the end of that year - 13 years on, my daughter still doesn't eat them.

It caused me a considerable amount of extra work - I'm a single mum and would have to come home and cook two different meals every day. Nobody else in our family is vegetarian.

I don't think vegetarianism is cruel to children, and it's not a view I've ever come across.

I think if they get older and express a strong desire to try meat, it would be cruel to deny them that choice, but it's not cruel to gently encourage them and expliain why you believe what you do when they are old enough.

Skyrg....My DS chose to give up meat for the welfare of animals at 4. He thought the idea of eating a dead animla was cruel. I supported him completely and as much of our protein was fish/quorn etc it wasn't a big deal. He now eats it again...at 8, but giving up again is never far from his mind.

DD2 stopped eating meat 3 years ago and is probably more healthy now than she ever was as the battles we had to just get her to eat where horrendous.

YANBU.

We're a very mixed household. I used to be vegetarian for years because of cruelty issues (farming methods rather than just killing animals), started eating meat again when living on a communal farm where we knew our meat had had a very happy life, still try to stick to free range or wild meat. DP is third generation vegetarian and simply doesn't recognise meat or fish as food, is a bit on the chubby side and has very rosy cheeks, DS never ate meat as a littl'un, was offered it but didn't like it until he discovered smoked salmon when he was about 5, is now a confirmed carnivore, DD loved meat as a little girl (mummy can we get that fish so I can take its head to bits?) but decided to go veg when she was about 13 because animals are too cute to eat. I do meat for me and DS about twice a week and we try to do vegan a couple of nights a week out of concern for the environment. We're all perfectly healthy :)

When half the planet is struggling on not much more than a couple of bowls of rice a day I find our obsession with diet in the west a little OTT, to say the least.

I think telling a child they 'shouldn't' eat meat is just as unfair as telling a vegetarian they should!

Posie, I'm impressed with your DS. Not for becoming a vegetarian but for really thinking about the ethics at that age. :)

My nephew hasn't noticed yet that my family don't eat meat but it's going to be a tricky one if he asks. It's a bit difficult to explain your reasons sometimes. Eg: I think it's cruel to eat animals. Child might hear: Your parents chop up Bambi and feed him to you. Bit extreme but you know what I mean!

I know it is extra work if you are a mixed views household, but best friend and her DS are veggie, they eat here lots.

At most it takes one extra pan to do a quorn version of what we've got. Some meals don't even take that, veggie sausages kept seperate from meat ones on a grill require no extra work at all.

I would hope most people including their patents would worry more about DC who won't eat veg than won't eat animals...

We're sort of a 'mixed views' household. My partner eats meat, I don't.
Our house (by his choice) is completely meat free. We only cook vegetarian meals. However, if we get take-away or if we're out, he'll often get meat. I'm fine with this and I think it's a perfect compromise.

Any children (we're not planning those yet!) would have to be vegetarian because I just wouldn't feel comfortable cooking meat. I hate the blood/veins/bones/skin etc, and I would feel very uncomfortable about cooking it in case I didn't do it thoroughly enough.

I don't think that it is cruel-people will bring up their own DCs on their own diet-if you don't eat meat it follows that your DC won't. However, once they get beyond 5 yrs and certainly by the age of 8yrs they should be free to choose. It doesn't mean that you will cook them meat, but that they might choose to have the meat meal in a school dinner or meat when they go to a friends house or a restaurant.
I would let a DC decide to be vegetarian at 8yrs, as long as they realised what it entailed.
What I think is wrong is deciding for a DC, over 8yrs, what their beliefs are. You will lose anyway in the long run if you insist- as in my vegan friends whose DS got a Saturday job in a butcher's shop! It was done deliberately as a rebellion.

DH and I are both ex-veggies, and we eat vegetarian for half of the week. However, I happen to think that meat products provide nutrients in a more easily digestible form than plant products, and this is backed up by research. This is not the same as saying it's "cruel" to bring up a child veggie, but I do think that, nutritionally speaking, it's a more sensible option.

At the moment DS (aged 4) is toying with the concept of vegetarianism, influenced by an adult whom he respects. Aside from my nutritional doubts about the impact of vegetarianism on children, it would be a real hassle for me as the family cook if I had to rejig my meat meals to suit a veggie family member. I've always taken the view that you cook one meal and one meal alone. I suppose I could give DS nuts, cheese, beans, etc and miss out the meat on our non-veggie days, but this is still extra work.

I have been vegetarian for 21 years. My partner is a meat-eater. Our 15 month old son is not being raised as a vegetarian, but he doesn't eat very much meat at all, just because we rarely have much of it in the house.

My partner does road-race cycling at a pretty high level and trains for about 10 hours a week on top of a 40 minute cycle commmute twice a day. His diet is predominantly vegetarian just by dint of us eating together for dinner. He takes some supplements, but says that he has no problems with that level of training on a low-meat diet, so I guess there can't be much wrong with it in terms of nutrition.

I have always been under the impression that a vegetarian diet was actually considered very healthy for children, but that a vegan child would probably need supplements or a very carefully planned diet. Not sure where I got it from - I have had that understanding for years.

YANBU.

I am, apparently, inflicting my neuroses on my children and I am indoctrinating them. BIL is an idiot all round though.

kungfupanda 'I have been vegetarian for 21 years. My partner is a meat-eater. Our 15 month old son is not being raised as a vegetarian, but he doesn't eat very much meat at all, just because we rarely have much of it in the house.'

That's exactly my position...Veggie for 21 years, omnivorous DP, 9mo DD. Not normally a great deal of flesh in the house.

I must admit I do sometimes woory about iron levels etc.

Hmm...yes...very woorying this diet business

Speedy 'However, I happen to think that meat products provide nutrients in a more easily digestible form than plant products, and this is backed up by research.'

Got any links or anything? Not saying I disbelieve you, but that's not come up in anything I've seen, so I'm curious.

I thought meat was actually pretty difficult to digest?

Kungfupannda - as far as I know vegan diets are fine but do need to be well planned, since you need to replace the calcium etc.

Unfortunately, when people don't know what they're doing it can have horrible consequences: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/

Sky, fraid I don't have links, as I was told this about 5 years ago by a v reputable nutritionist. One example I've seen more recently is that although spinach is fairly high in calcium, dairy and sardines are better sources of the nutrient, as the calcium in spinach is indigestible to humans.

I was aware of calcium and spinach, but you mentioned vegetarians: 'This is not the same as saying it's "cruel" to bring up a child veggie, but I do think that, nutritionally speaking, it's a more sensible option.'
The calcium issue doesn't affect us due to the fact we still consume dairy. Do you know of anything that would apply to vegetarians?

Also, I do know that the right greens in the right quantity are sufficient for calcium. I think in spinach, for example, it's just a lower amount that is digestible.
Personally I don't think I could manage a vegan diet, but I know a lot of people manage it fine.

YANBU

Large sections of the worlds population are vegetarian.

YANBU

I have been a vegetarian for 26 years and I don't have a clue how to cook meat. A couple of times a week I burn a sausage or boil some fish to death for my dd but mostly she is vegetarian at home. She eats meat at nursery.

I'm hoping that my awful attempts to cook meat will leave a lasting impression and when she's old enough to decide she will become a proper vegetarian.

From a nutrition point of view iron is more easily absorbed from meat sources but by making a few changed to eating habits non-heam iron (the type in vegetables) absorbtion can be increased - avoiding cups of tea at mealtimes (particularly breakfast) as tannin in tea reduces iron absorbtion and fortified breakfast cereals are a good vege source of iron. Having vitamin c with iron containing foods - increases absorbtion.

Definately not cruel to bring children up as vegetarians diets just need a bit more planning to make sure all nutients are provided. Also need to make sure you are not eating loads of cheesey dishes as vegetarians can get fat too.

I'm not a vegetarian, although I only eat meat about once a week, if that (not a great lover of the taste and very particular about the texture and quality).

I have no problem with parents feeding their child whatever diet they feel is appropriate in their house. I agree with OP that it's silly to use phrases such as 'cruel' and 'lack of choice' as you can make those arguments fit whatever dietary choices are being made. Personally, I'd far rather my DC were fed a well-balanced vegetarian diet than a crap-laden meat-based diet, but by the same token, I'd rather they were fed a well-balanced meaty diet than a nutritionally poor vegetarian one. It's all about quality and nutrition, not meat v vegetarianism.

Given that it's pretty much accepted in academic circles that human evolution owes much to meat eating, I don't have a moral problem with people choosing to eat meat. We are omnivores, not true carnivores, but in evolutionary terms we have a strong predilection towards eating meat. That said, this far along the evolutionary chain we also have sentience and the ability to ponder ethical questions. This should make us think about how we source our food. Meat eating isn't a moral question in my book. Factory farming, however, is IMO.