to want people to understand before judging?

[Skyrg]

AIBU to think people should understand vegetarianism before they brand it cruel?

There was a recent thread which mentioned this vaguely, but this is based on opinions I've encountered elsewhere, including real life. So it's not a thread about a thread, iyswim.
Also note I am certainly not talking about everyone, but a surprising number of people do seem to have some strange ideas.

So:
Anyone who does not eat meat or fish is a vegetarian.
Anyone who does not eat meat but eats fish is a pescetarian.
Anyone who eats no meat, fish or dairy is a vegan.
All of the above may also avoid cheese that contains rennet and anything that contains gelatine, but it's often difficult to check this so they may eat it accidentally.

It is perfectly possible to live healthily on the above diets.

Quote: Appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
www.vrg.org/nutrition/2003_ADA_position_paper.pdf

The average human being does not need to eat meat. (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them choosing to do so though).

The usual concerns of a vegetarian diet:
Low Protein
Low Iron
Low Vitamin B12
Low Omega 3
Also low Calcium in vegans

All of these can be obtained through a vegetarian diet in high enough quantities to meet the body's requirements. Most vegetarians and vegans will vary their diet deliberately to compensate for any lack there might be. This can include eating things such as seeds, nuts, chickpeas, soy, hempseeds? etc. Also vegetarians tend to eat eggs and dairy, which are good sources of various things. (We don't just eat plants).
Of course a limited vegetarian diet (e.g just eating lettuce) would not be good, but then neither would a limited meat diet (e.g just eating meat).

There are also positives of vegetarianism, but I'm concentrating on trying to dispel the negatives here. So, briefly, 'Vegetarians tend to have lower body mass index, lower levels of cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less incidence of heart disease, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, renal disease, osteoporosis, dementias such as Alzheimer?s Disease and other disorders' (shamelessly quoted from Wikipedia!). All of these are based on words like 'tend to' and 'generally' and aren't necessarily just a result of vegetarianism, but still worth mentioning for the sake of a full argument. I personally believe this is probably also down to other lifestyle choices which are also common in vegetarians.

Vegetarianism, or forms of it, are important for several religions. People have many reasons for being vegetarian, which I have no room for here. It is fine to disagree with vegetarians that killing animals is cruel, or bad for the environment, or whatever they believe. However, it is very important that people know it is not a harmful diet.

So, AIBU to get quite miffed when people think it's cruel to bring a child up vegetarian?
The usual argument is 'you don't give them a choice'. Well ofc you bloody don't, they can't usually analyse it and discuss it when you start weaning them! If it bothers them, they can choose to eat meat when they're older. Just like children who are brought up to eat meat (surely they're forced as well, if we're talking about forcing) can later become vegetarian.

I expect this has been done before, so sorry for that, but I'm sort of hoping that at least one person may find out something they didn't know.

I totally agree with maryz. My parents became vegetarians when I was about 12 and in the days before veggie burgers. I learned how to cook, and how to eat a balanced diet. People have expressed surprise on learning that I don't eat meat as I am certainly not thin and pale looking!

When the midwife found out she went into a totally panic about iron levels and sent my DH to buy some hideously expensive supplement. When my bloods came back my iron levels were high and remained so throughout my pregnancy - because I know what to eat.

DS is now 8 months and is basically on a vegetarian diet, but is offered meat if DH is having it. I will let him choose himself when he is older.

If you really want to understand the 'cruel' accusation this is my interpretation. :)

In the world of the omnivorous family, our main concern is that children eat as broad a diet as possible and are, above all, 'unfussy'. (You've only to read anxiety-ridden threads on 'why won't my child eat x, y, z' to see that.) To many omnivores, vegetarianism/veganism is not so much a lifestyle statement, health issue or even a moral animal welfare matter but simply a form of 'fussy eating'... bordering on food phobia and/or disordered eating.

So to pass that on to children, restrict their diet from the outset & create 'fussy eaters' is baffling to many omnivores.

I think that it is perfectly easy to give a child a balanced, vegetarian diet. The important thing is that once they get to about 8 yrs old they get the choice for themselves.

YANBU, Feeding them meat doesn't give them a choice either.

Parents need to decide what is best for their children and sut about what other people feed their kids.

So long ag what they are feeding them is not greggs sausage rolls obviously

*shut up about

"At most it takes one extra pan to do a quorn version of what we've got. Some meals don't even take that, veggie sausages kept seperate from meat ones on a grill require no extra work at all."

See, I like vegetarian food, but I don't like pseudo meat products, and have issues with the amount of soya used in some of them so it's not that easy.

I have been vegetarian in the past and would be quite happy if my child decided to be vegetarian, I don't think it is at all cruel to give a child a healthy vegetarian diet. Especially if it introduces the concept of having and ethical responsibility about what they consume, however they decide to interpret this when they are old enough decide for themselves.

I now eat meat occassionally, and I can't see much moral difference between the meat and the dairy industry, which entails the routine slaughter of male calves, and I don't think I could be vegan. Actually I think much of the meat industry is more morally defensible than this.

So a few of you have said that at 8 years old you feel a child is old enough to make decisions. If that decision is to eat meat do you support that and provide it? Obviously an 8yo has limited options regarding preparing their own food.

Just interested. I'm not vegetarian, tried it in my youth but it wasn't for me. The Atkins diet is more my thing!

I think that 8yrs is most definitely the age for them to try meat if they want to. I wouldn't expect veggie parents to buy it and prepare it, but if Grandma happens to be serving a roast dinner it should be up to them. If the go out to a restaurant they should be able to choose from the entire menu.They should be able to choose the meat option in a school dinner-or have a bacon sandwich at a friend's house, sausages at a birthday party etc.
If I were to have a DC who wanted to be vegetarian at that age I would cook separate meals, but they would have to understand that they were going to eat a wide range of vegetables, pulses, nuts etc and they wouldn't get pseudo meat products.

Altinkum - I wasn't directly referring to that thread actually, it was elsewhere I had seen the word 'cruel' used.
The child's diet would be poor even if they allowed him to eat meat, we are not designed to be carnivores, we cannot thrive on meat alone. He was not eating vegetables, that was the problem in that thread. IMO feeding him meat would actually be negative, they need to explore why he doesn't eat vegetables. I haven't read the thread properly so there may be something I've missed.

marmitetoast - I agree with you to some extent. I have much admiration for meat eaters who 'grow' their own animals. I still don't much like the fact they're eaten and couldn't do it myself, but at least you know they've had a good life and can see they're killed fairly painlessly.

I'm not sure 8 is old enough to make your own decision, there's a lot of peer pressure etc, and food made attractive. Changing from a vegetarian diet to a meat diet can make you pretty ill, so if I had children wanting to try meat I'd want to control it to make sure they ate the right things in the right amount iyswim.

In families who were vegetarians for religious reasons it probably wouldn't be a choice they were given.

I would also want a child to have a decent understanding of the process of farming etc, rather than just seeing it as another thing on the menu.

Depends on the child, imo.

Also, what's wrong with pseudo meat products?

any child I bear will be vegetarian until they are old enough to understand about meat production and be able to make a choice for themselves.

To me, that makes sense, as much sense as a meat-eater feeding their child meat until they can decide.

I have been veggie since I was 13, and I just couldn't bring myself to raise a child eating meat, when I believe it's wrong myself.
DH eats meat, but whatever he eats, he makes himself. (and knows not to cross-contaminate utensils and pans etc)
From my POV, i would prefer the child to become a meat-eater through their own choice than to be brought up doing something that I consider morally wrong. (an additional point of this is that it belittles any teaching of right and wrong that I need to do...)

when I first became veggie, it was very hard to find veggie cheese and other things - something that I will always love the Co-op for - they were the first to make veggie cheese and onion crisps! (I had to wait about 2 years for one!)
I still love the Co-op for having the best range of veggie foods and labelling on wine etc. (it's the labelling that's the most important).

oh, and I don't like stuff that tastes like it's trying to be meat (esp Quorn) - I can get plenty enough protein in my diet without those.

and to add to pisces 's comment on if the 8-year-old wants to eat meat, it's fine (as long as tehy understand what it's all about), and that if Grandparents wanted to be the ones to make the meat , that's fine.

But I would not be happy if someone gave my child meat without my permission. eg, if they went to a party and were offered meat, or if they had lunch at grandma's (my dad is very against vegetarianism - mainly because it's "different" but he respects my feelings and wouldn't feed my child meat because he'd know how upset I'd be about it - even though he still asks every year if i'm eating meat yet!)

I think that once the DC gets to 8yrs old people should ask the DC and not the mother. The DC shouldn't be avoiding meat because it will upset the parent! The parent makes their own choice and there is nothing whatever to say that the DC will agree. Once the DC has decided there is no need to ask the parent's permission.
I can't see the point of pseudo meat products-there are lots of wonderful things that you can cook from scratch. I have at least 5 vegetarian cookbooks and although I eat meat-see nothing wrong in eating meat (I get it from farm shops where I can see it running around in the fields)I don't eat it everyday- a lot of it is meat free.

Pisces a vegetarian child eating meat can make them ill. Do you really think it's a good idea to suddenly ask a child if they want a burger? What if they feel obliged to accept out of politeness etc?
I was forced to eat a fishfinger when I was about 5, and something similar when I was about 9. I knew I shouldn't be eating fish and didn't want to. First time I was forced by a dinnerlady, second time it was a babysitter who didn't know what 'vegetarian' meant. I still ate it because they were adults and I wasn't.

I've seen stupid comments about vegetarianism being cruel to children, or bad for children, or it being unfair to deprive them of meat on here over the years.

Irritating but I generally either ignore or try to explain. So perhaps that person may be less hostile and judgmental next time they meet a veggie especially a veggie child.

Btw, I'm one of three veggie sisters. Only one is raising her children veggie - the others eat meat because our dhs felt strongly about it. (One dh is Italian and cares very much about provenance - buys meat from a farmer he knows and has it butchered or goes out rabbiting which strikes me as morally and nutritionally better than buying plastic-wrapped non-free range from a supermarket).

And, tbh, I'm not a good cook and it is easier for me to make sure ds has a balanced diet by including meat. (Dh often cooks for me but is home too late to cook for ds.)

Sorry, point about my sisters is all the children are strong and healthy - no-one looking at them could tell which two are vegetarian and which two are omnivores. (Actually now I come to think of it, the one really fussy eater is an omnivore but she had glue ear so chewing was painful, poor little love, and has been left with odd food habits as a result.)

I'm not talking about anyone forcing the DC!!!! I would be ill if forced to eat anything. If they are at a party and take a small sausage roll it isn't going to make them ill. No one is suggesting they start with a quarter pound steak.
My whole point it that it is up to the DC . The parent has chosen for themselves and they have chosen for the small DC -it isn't in their 'gift' to choose for the older DC. They should give their own reasons, but it is appalling if they pile on guilt and emotional blackmail.
I don't see anything wrong in it. I was partly brought up on a farm, if my aunt was doing chicken for dinner she went and killed one. That is why she kept them.

No pisces, I know you're not talking about forcing them, but I think it's unfair for someone else to suddenly start asking a vegetarian child if they want meat. That's up to the parent to discuss it with them, imo. I especially wouldn't ask them in a party environment, for example.
A small sausage roll might make them ill, because it's such a different type of food. Also the taste is very different and might not be at all what the child is expecting, especially at 8. A lot of vegetarians are sick the first time they try meat.

I know it's different, but you wouldn't ask a child with a nut allergy if they wanted nuts, would you?

No one is suggesting piling on guilt or emotional blackmail. I'm saying I think if the child wants meat, it's up to the parents to discuss that with them and find a way to introduce it which they are all happy with.
Whenever I told my mum I wanted to try meat, she'd have a conversation with me about it, explaining why she didn't, why some people did, and saying it was my choice. After this I would think about it, realise I agreed with her reasons and be perfectly happy. There was no guilt or emotional blackmail, but it was between me and her, no one else's business.

YANBU. We all make choices for our children about what we consider best for them...I don't see how bringing a child up to be vegetarian is cruel.

In that case Skyrg it is up to you to introduce meat if your DC wishes. I just thought that if you were anti yourself you would rather restrict it to outside the home.
I think that you have to be very careful when you say it is her choice that she doesn't hear your hidden wish of 'I hope that you will follow me'. Body language says a lot and she really should have a free choice.
I would have catered for mine being vegetarian had they wished.
There is no point in rigid control-they may turn out like my vegan friend's son working in a butcher's shop! (I'm sure he would have got a different job if they had given freedom of choice-it was just outright rejection).

I would rather restrict it to outside the home tbh Pisces, but I would still want to ensure that I was at least aware of and preferably in control of the first time they tried meat.

I think it is impossible to avoid a 'I hope you will follow me', children are not stupid and will always realise that if you're vegetarian and you've brought them up vegetarian, you would like them to stay vegetarian. Emotional blackmail would obviously be unfair, but I don't actually think there's anything wrong with saying 'I'd like you to be vegetarian but it's your choice.' Better to be honest.
At the end of the day, nothing is a free choice, there's always pressure somewhere.
Children who become vegetarian in a meat eating family may realise they're causing inconvenience with two meals, or whatever. Everyone's choice is influenced somehow.

I agree that there is no point in rigid control, and I think that would unfair anyway.

'Deprivation'... is the other angle. So often on threads here you'll read about someone that has decided not to let their child anywhere near something like chocolate on principle. And we all know those are hardly essential foodstuffs. However, the response will range from 'you're right, those are foods are the embodiment of evil' to 'everything in moderation' (most common answer) to 'you are being a cruel parent for denying the child chocolate'.

So you get a similar scenario where grandparents, friends or BILs (who don't see eating meat as a moral issue and who enjoy it the same as they enjoy chocolate) will regard the veggie parent as simply one who 'denies a child meat'...

Chocolate is an essential foodstuff to me!

When I had a really serious question to ask my 9yr old I knew that he would sense what I thought even if I tried my best to be impartial and so I got a family friend (with no vested interest in the answer) to bring it up in conversation. It meant that DS didn't know that he was even being asked a question and I was happy to know that he though the same as me without picking up vibes.
I sometimes think that we are so far removed from food production these days that many people have no idea how it is produced. I am quite happy to eat ethically farmed and killed animals, but I am very uneasy about milk production and if I were to cut anything out it would be milk, butter, cheese. I haven't-just as well as I can't do without chocolate! It makes more sense to me to be vegan, but I don't think that a lot of vegetarians have much idea on what it takes to get milk.