to want people to understand before judging?

[Skyrg]

AIBU to think people should understand vegetarianism before they brand it cruel?

There was a recent thread which mentioned this vaguely, but this is based on opinions I've encountered elsewhere, including real life. So it's not a thread about a thread, iyswim.
Also note I am certainly not talking about everyone, but a surprising number of people do seem to have some strange ideas.

So:
Anyone who does not eat meat or fish is a vegetarian.
Anyone who does not eat meat but eats fish is a pescetarian.
Anyone who eats no meat, fish or dairy is a vegan.
All of the above may also avoid cheese that contains rennet and anything that contains gelatine, but it's often difficult to check this so they may eat it accidentally.

It is perfectly possible to live healthily on the above diets.

Quote: Appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
www.vrg.org/nutrition/2003_ADA_position_paper.pdf

The average human being does not need to eat meat. (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them choosing to do so though).

The usual concerns of a vegetarian diet:
Low Protein
Low Iron
Low Vitamin B12
Low Omega 3
Also low Calcium in vegans

All of these can be obtained through a vegetarian diet in high enough quantities to meet the body's requirements. Most vegetarians and vegans will vary their diet deliberately to compensate for any lack there might be. This can include eating things such as seeds, nuts, chickpeas, soy, hempseeds? etc. Also vegetarians tend to eat eggs and dairy, which are good sources of various things. (We don't just eat plants).
Of course a limited vegetarian diet (e.g just eating lettuce) would not be good, but then neither would a limited meat diet (e.g just eating meat).

There are also positives of vegetarianism, but I'm concentrating on trying to dispel the negatives here. So, briefly, 'Vegetarians tend to have lower body mass index, lower levels of cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less incidence of heart disease, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, renal disease, osteoporosis, dementias such as Alzheimer?s Disease and other disorders' (shamelessly quoted from Wikipedia!). All of these are based on words like 'tend to' and 'generally' and aren't necessarily just a result of vegetarianism, but still worth mentioning for the sake of a full argument. I personally believe this is probably also down to other lifestyle choices which are also common in vegetarians.

Vegetarianism, or forms of it, are important for several religions. People have many reasons for being vegetarian, which I have no room for here. It is fine to disagree with vegetarians that killing animals is cruel, or bad for the environment, or whatever they believe. However, it is very important that people know it is not a harmful diet.

So, AIBU to get quite miffed when people think it's cruel to bring a child up vegetarian?
The usual argument is 'you don't give them a choice'. Well ofc you bloody don't, they can't usually analyse it and discuss it when you start weaning them! If it bothers them, they can choose to eat meat when they're older. Just like children who are brought up to eat meat (surely they're forced as well, if we're talking about forcing) can later become vegetarian.

I expect this has been done before, so sorry for that, but I'm sort of hoping that at least one person may find out something they didn't know.

To be honest I think getting someone else to ask the child a question would make it more of a difficult situation in this case. I really believe that if you're always open and honest about it, the child will ask to eat meat if they decide they want to. If you believe in what you're doing, you shouldn't feel you need to suddenly check with them that it's ok when they're 8.

Agree about the milk, I know there are some dodgy production methods but don't know how to avoid those brands, iyswim.
I think the same is true of meat, people are very unaware of what happens to the animals, how they live, how they're killed etc. There was that case where a school raised a lamb which was then to be slaughtered and the parents outraged, kids devastated. I know the kids got close to the lamb, but surely they understood that's what happens to animals? That's what happens on farms, people can get close to animals but they still have to be killed.

I think that the children all understood perfectly what would happen to the lamb-they lived in the country and had voted on it. It was a parent who kicked up a fuss and it got blown out of all proportion. We had a farm on my secondary school-everyone knew what happened to the animals-we were country DCs.
I think that DCs are loyal to their parents-if my mother had been strongly vegetarian I doubt whether I would have voiced an opposing opinion-I'm not the sort to rock the boat-I would have gone along with it and quietly done my own thing when older.

Pisces - it's certainly not up to interfering acquaintances or relatives, however well meaning.

My Dad is a bit like this with my sister's veggie kids. Always 'joking' about sneaking them a bit of sausage roll at a party. Not very funny at all but he won't be told, so we all just ignore it.

It depends on the age edam-at some point you cannot control what your DCs eat-they will choose for themselves. To my mind 8yrs is a good age to decide whther you want a sausage roll at a party without mum behind you saying 'Pisces doesn't eat meat'-maybe pisces wpould like to speak for herself by then! (Fair enough if the DC is only 3 yrs or even 6 yrs). I cannot see why you bring a DC into the world and expect them to think the same as you.

pisces - my ds isn't veggie as it happens. But I would object very strongly if other people started taking it upon themselves to make decisions for him with which I disagree. Why do you think an 8yo should be encouraged to go against his or her family's beliefs and customs? Would you offer a Muslim or Jewish child pork? If not, why do you think religious beliefs are more important than other, equally strongly-held beliefs?

My ds is 7, btw. I disagree that in a year's time, it will be OK for acquaintances to start offering stuff with which they know I disagree.

Although tbh am struggling to think of anything I ban - I'm fairly easygoing. But I have the right to decide what is appropriate for my child, given I'm the one bringing him up and I know him best, his feelings, his fears and his medical history.

For instance, I happen to know that my ds reacts badly to eating eggs. He's fine with eggs as an ingredient in cakes and suchlike, but unadulterated eggs, scrambled, poached, boiled, make him vomit. Some interfering busybody who tried to feed him eggs wouldn't know that (and would get what they deserved if he puked over them).

Fortunately round my neck of the woods parents are quite thoughtful when children are arranging to go round for tea - people always ask if there's anything your child doesn't eat.

I am veggie, btw. And suffered, as a child, from idiot adults who thought it was OK to badger me into 'trying' food I disliked. Some foods really repelled me - even the thought of them, then the texture and the taste, made me gag.

Being overbearing, deliberately countermanding what you know full well a parent wants for their child, is ruddy offensive and dangerous too.

I think that we are talking about 2 separate things edam. Maybe it depends on the maturity of the DC-so lets put in 10yrs instead of 8yrs. By 10yrs a DC with an allergy knows exactly what they can't eat and they can say so (I think they can do it at 8yrs too).
I am not talking about anyone badgering a DC to eat something that they don't want or usually eat or makes them ill. If I ask a DC around to tea of course I ask what they don't eat-but very often I ask the DC-it depends who I see to talk to- the DC or the mother. 8 yrs old have got a tongue!
It is the choice of the DC by 10 yrs- if they are at a party with a plate of sausage rolls and everyone is helping themselves-no one is handing them around or even suggesting-they should be free to take one if they want to-helicopter mother standing behind saying 'no-you don't eat them' is on a hiding to nowhere, because if the DC wants to try them they will simply wait a few years until they are responsible for their own food. If you really want them to be vegetarian for life you make sure that they have had a free choice from early on IMO.
By 10 yrs it should come from within them and not forced externally by mother.
While I wouldn't offer a Muslim pork etc I would expect them to make up their own mind when they are older-it is sheer luck of birth which family you are born into and they may not wish to follow when they are older. It would be a horrible world if we were born into -and by accident of birth we have to follow our parents in all their beliefs. They bring us up one way until we decide for ourselves.
A child isn't a vegetarian, meat eater, Christian, Muslim, atheist, Conservative etc etc they are merely a child of a vegetarian, meat eater,Christian, Muslim, atheist, Conservative etc until they are old enough to decide. A wise parent knows that if they are given a certain amount of freedom they are more likely to follow IMO.
If a 10yr old DC of a vegetarian says to Granny, (who is cooking roast chicken)'Can I have some please' I can't see why the mother sharply says 'no you can't!' Please note Granny did not suggest it.

What's cruel, is the meat and dairy industry. What's cruel, is the needless imprisonment, abuse and slaughter of animals. What's cruel is blindly continuing to chow down meat merely because it's how you were raised, and what the vast majority of people do in this country/the west, and you haven't thought to question if it's actually right, or the healthiest option - and then inflicting those unhealthy choices on your children. We don't need meat or dairy to thrive, neither are actually healthful - we are far better suited to a plant-based diet (recommended reading: www.amazon.co.uk/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100660/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289117732&sr=1-1 The China Study) and this is what we will be teaching our children.

I would be disappointed if, after being made aware of what meat is, and how it came to be in someone's cooking pot, my DC lacked the compassion to refrain from wanting animal flesh or secretions, but I do accept they will have a choice when they are old enough to understand such things. Much the same as you would raise your child to know smoking is stupid, but there's not a lot you can do if they decide they want a cigarette.

Of the two adult vegans I know who were raised vegan from birth, neither rebelled. I know several families who are raising their children vegan, and so far, there are no rebellions there either.

In answer to the OP, YANBU, but I would say I haven't encountered this attitude from anyone who knows us - family and friends all know DH and I are very well-informed about our dietary choices, and would never endanger the health or well-being of our children. We've also set up a website for information on raising vegan children, done loads of research, so people can see we do know what we are doing.
Strangers, yes - I will get challenged occasionally, but they are just ignorant, and upon discussing with us, soon understand we really do know what we are talking about.

"We don't need meat or dairy to thrive"

Then where do you get your B12 from?

Sky, calcium was just an example of how animal sources of nutrients are more easily digestible. The general principle is that the higher up the food chain you go, the easier nutrients are to digest. So with this in mind you'd probably find that if you take any nutrient you'll find that we digest it more readily from animal sources. I'd be interested to find out your results if you look into this.

Another thing to bear in mind for both veggies and vegans is the large question mark hanging over 'Western' soya products, ie milk, cream, soya protein, etc. Traditional Eastern soya foods (tofu, miso, etc) are fermented for months as part of the production process. This basically eliminates the phytoestrogens, which have apparently been shown to mimic human oestrogen. Western products do not undergo this lengthy fermentation process, so most of the phytoestrogens are left in the soya, which can lead to hormonal problems - some claim it can even increase infertility.

Interestingly, it's said that up to 70% of foods on supermarket shelves contain soya in some form - just check the labels and you'll see it's extensively used. I wonder if the widespread 'hidden' use of soya is partially to blame for the current rise of infertility in the UK?

I still use soya milk, but far more sparingly than before.

I agree with Pisces about the ethical issues around dairy products. It seems to me that a vegetarian diet (sadly) is not necessarily more productive of animal welfare than a diet including meat. The cheese itself may have been produced without rennet, but what about the wider dairy industry itself?

p.s. I wonder whether people also have issues with the GM soya?

I would have huge issues with GM soya.
I think that lots of vegetarians happily eat dairy products because they have no idea how milk is produced.
I know lots of vegetarians who have chosen it for different reasons but not one has said 'my mother thinks'!
The only reason that I can think of for not letting your DC choose is that you are frightened they will make the 'wrong' choice. I think that what you do yourself has much more influence than what you say.
I'm afraid that my mother saying to grandma 'Pisces doesn't eat meat' would have me thinking 'you wait and see what Pisces does!' I was very quiet so I wouldn't have asserted myself-just quietly done my own thing out of mother's sight.

A mother would have no issue in people offering her 10yr old meat if she was sure that they would refuse it (easy to do lots of 10yr olds have decided to be vegetarian when the rest of the family eat meat-they have just as strong views as adults)-they are afraid that the DC will accept.(If they are curious at 10yrs they will be curious at 14 yrs or 18 yrs etc).

I wouldn't be frightened to let my child choose, but I would want them to be aware of what meat was. For example, I would want them to know it was a sausage roll, containing pig, not a cheese roll. At that age they could get mixed up.
If they knew what they were eating, it would be fine. On the other hand, I'd rather they tried real meat rather than sausage rolls .

As for the soya thing, I did some research into it and now avoid like the plague. I don't worry too much about it in food because that's hard to avoid, but I don't eat tofu or buy soya milk, for example.

Sorry, I mean at that age they could get mixed up because they look similar, not because I would be raising a child who didn't know the difference between sausage and cheese!

I think that it helps to know from a very early age where our food comes from. Mine have always known that bacon comes from pigs, that the lambs in the fields are kept for meat etc-that way they don't get a nasty shock-it is just part of the food chain.
I don't see a problem with letting them choose-either they agree with your view point and they will choose as you would choose or they don't like it, and while you can force it while young, they will ultimately choose for themselves. Quite possibly they will choose meat and then come back to vegetarianism when older-at least it was their choice.
I am bringing up my DCs to eat a healthy diet for life by example-I don't see the point in making it so strict that they eat unhealthily once they can choose for themselves. It has worked, I am impressed that they keep a fairly healthy diet away from home and me.
If you eat a healthy,vegetarian diet at home that is saying much more to them than any amount of control outside the home.

Sky, I vehemently oppose your stance on meat. Now I love good quality, organic meat, which is one of the reasons why we don't eat meat every day (too pricey). But at a party there's nowt so tempting as a cheap, fatty sausage roll!

This question of the morality of eating animals is interesting as a parent. As a meat eater I clearly brush aside the fact that I'm tucking into a previously living creature - were I to think about the full weight of what this means I might decide to go fully vegetarian again. But I must confess that I steer well clear of telling DS honestly and openly that we're eating animals. It feels hypocritical, but I think as parents we sometimes have to be hypocritical.

I suppose it's no different from other aspects of life where I shield him from information which I think is too weighty for him to handle - e.g teaching him that people only go to heaven when they are REALLY old (emphasising the fact that we, his family, are far too young for that). Another example is when we watched the 'Cars' movie - I started to explain the irony of Mack calling that the Kenny G song he heard "pretty music", but then I realised that introducing him to the horror of Kenny G really was a step too cruel for his impressionable little mind.

This is an interesting discussion, coming from a family of meat eaters whose child has chosen to be veggie - the other way round to lots of families!

DD2 decided at the age of 8 to become veggie because she said she just couldn't eat animals any more. I understand some of the things you've encountered, Skyrg, because I did have critisism from some family members for "letting" her do it. 3 years on and she has grown well, is actually fatter than she used to be (a good thing, she was very, very skinny before, underweight, really) and is scarily healthy - she fights off stuff that all the rest of us succumb to!

She's virtually converted me - I'm not veggie but I don't eat meat more than once a week any more. Plus the rest of the family have veggie meals about 4 times a week now because it's just easier. So much cheaper, too!

I think children should be given choice, whichever way they choose. Strangely, I might be a bit disappointed if DD2 went back to meat now because it's been so good for her and us all, but if she did, that would also be her choice.

I think it's important children do know what they are eating when they eat meat (well, maybe no need to spell it out at 2, but certainly by school age). DD2 at first avoided gelatine in sweets, then went back to them because she missed them - and didn't really connect it IYSWIM. Then the other day she saw a programme where they were boiling bones to get the gelatine. She was quite horrified and I think gelatine sweets are back off the menu again!

Watching the thread with interest. :)

I have fact from when young Speedy. I haven't had the luxury of saying that people only when they are old as DSs father didn't even see 30 yrs. DCs, especially girls around 5 yrs, are very interested in the whole subject-it is their parents who have been embarrassed when they have questioned me and it has been their parents who have tried to change the subject. DCs don't find it worrying if you are matter of fact. Death is part of life. My 2 yr old had to handle the fact that his father was dead.
In the same way-when first reading the board books on farmyard animals we would look at cows , say moo, and say they give milk and roast beef etc.If we didn't eat them they would be extinct apart from a few in Disney type theme parks as rare animals.
As they get older we discuss the fact that they should have a happy life, in the fields and a humane death which is why I pay more at the farm shop and equal out the money by cooking a lot of meat free meals.
Children are fine with it-unless they suddenly get a shock to find that a packet of bacon on the supermarket shelf comes from a pig! (the parents shouldn't let them get the shock).

Sorry-I meant -I gave them facts from very young.

Sorry-I really wrote in haste. I also meant I haven't had the luxury of saying that people only die when they are old, as DSs father was only in his 20's when he died. I think it is a mistake-especially as it is untrue.

Completely off-topic, but what are "marking place" posts for? Just wondering :)