to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

[GallumDrawnAndQuartered]

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

'Both support the armed forces'

Do you think we shouldn't have an Army/Navy/RAF at all then, OP?

Wearing a white poppy signifies the view that traditional Remembrance condones war. That is an opinion which you're obviously free to hold. But it seems some wearers don't realise that. And as it does signify that opinion, it also signifies disapproval. You might not like it, or personally disapprove of a red poppy, but that's what it signifies.

Scrubious: yes I agree. But people are free to say they are offended, or that they see that others who suffered would be offended, and people are free to be offended, after all.

Dear Earwig

in response to your 8.14 last night ("British isn't a race"), can I just suggest you say these variants of Chibi's sentiment out loud in public, preferably in a public place in the country mentioned:

"the idea of the [ substitute one of the following] Pakistani/Irish/American/Chinese/you choose people as anything other than an island country of bloodthirsty marauding plunderers is hilarious, and i speak as one from a country colonised by them"

Then, as people turned to stare at you, say "No no you mustn't be offended, it's not racist, because of course the Pakistanis/Irish/Americans/Chinese/you choose are not a race"

Laugh gaily as your arse gets kicked over a hedge.

And make it alright by saying "But of course the Pakistanis/Irish/Americans/Chinese/you choose have wonderful literature and a great sense of rhythm"

Doesn't wash any more. Racist remarks are racist remarks even if they are directed at the British.

Anyway off topic but had to address the claptrap. Carry on, as you were.

Have only skimmed the thread, but at 14, surely it's up to your dd to decide for herself? Why are you trying to impose something on her?

Also, I assume this is a school thing. I don't know any schools who have compulsory attendance at a Remembrance Service. Is this a particular school you have chosen? If so, it's hardly reasonable to then complain about its ethos.

I'll be wearing my poppy with pride, its not about violence, its not about agreeing with war, its about the friends I've lost and the brave people in previous conflicts who died prematurely. They deserve to be remembered, as human beings, as loved ones, as part of our life that we'll never share again because of the destruction of war, not the glory of it.

OP, I think your daughter should step down from the role offered and suggest someone more able to take her place. If its something she believes so strongly about then she should make her point, maturely, and not attend.
11/11 is about the red poppy and what it stands for, its not about the white/purple or any other colour poppy.

i'll repost then catinthehat2

Don't misunderstand me

My post was not 'the uk is evil and everyone is pure and good'

In matters of war no one's hands are clean

to pretend that the uk goes to war reluctantly and with the purest of motives is disingenuous, no matter what any individual soldier tells him or herself

And so it goes for all nations

no one's hands are clean

what is racist about this?

and the wonderful things about the uk and it's people, which I love and which make me glad I live here do not mitigate or cancel these things out

and furthermore i wrote this about the uk because this is a uk messageboard talking about remembrance day in the uk

i could have written a similar post on a belgian messageboard, a canadian one, a french one, an italian one, a russian one etc etc etc

in matters of war no one's hands are clean

thevenomouscrazyLadybug the op's daughter has decided not to go.

The thread has sort of moved on but is still just going round and round in circles with no one seeing or even trying to understand each others points of view.

You didn't say that chibi. You said it was a land of marauding bloodthirsty plunderers.

...a land of marauding bloodthirsty plunderers

doubtless you prefer a nation of humble yet honest people, who very reluctantly take up arms in the service of bringing civilisation to the dark benighted corners of the world

getting faaaaabulously wealthy in the process

have you heard of colonialism?

do you wonder ever where the wealth of this nation, its power and influence derive from?

do you ever wonder how it was transformed from small island nation to empire?

go on, give me phrase that works better than marauding bloodthirsty plunderers

and all the good that has come from this country, the beautiful things, the benign, the sublime etc does not cancel the rest out

just like goethe doesn't cancel out the holocaust

or the declaration of independance cancel out slavery and jim crow

or stalingrad cancel out the gulags

etc etc etc

no one's hands are clean

no one's motives are pure

if there was a poppy for the child who died of dysentry because all the medics were in the hills with guns, holding a position i would wear it

there is none

... or a poppy for the wedding party who were mistaken for a supply convoy and bombed to smithereens, i would wear that too

do let me know whenever anyone gets round to making one for them

It's called a red poppy. It commemorates those who died in conflict. That's what I wear it for.

You are so childish.

I'll wear my poppy with pride, in rememberance not just of the men that died,but of their mothers, wives, and children. And the men that came back with horrific injuries and PTSD.

I wish none of them had died in those godforsaken trenches, but i will remember them and their sacrifice.

Anyone who wears a white poppy should be ashamed of themselves.It is not about glorifying war.

so commemorates both soldiers and the people killed by them?

what a versatile emblem indeed

It is simply delusional to be under the impression that foreign policy in this country is about peace/democracy/providing humanitarian aid or whatever..it is about wealth and greed. Delude yourself however you want to but those who send young men off to war know EXACTLY why they are doing it..as do the rest of us who dont have our heads in the sand or the daily mail.

briefcasewanker - there are still plenty of our troops coming back with PTSD. Services for them are crap and government ignores them as they did in previous wars.

Is there any reason you don't wear your poppy to remember the women who died in service?

Well yes. It's about the sorry of war as well as sacrifice. Unless that's just me personally.

Honestly you may as well say that Belgium, France, Scandinavia, Spain, Portugal and so on are lands of bloodthirsty marauders, that Russia is a land of criminals, that India is a land of corruption, that Italy and Germany are lands of fascists, that the French are cheese eating surrender monkeys etc etc. Where are you from? Let's find an epithet for that shall we?

That's what racism is. Falsely branding an entire nation or a race with faults or inadequacies, because of what happened in the past, or what some parts of the nation are currently getting up to.

Comments like "have you heard of colonialism" are so childish. That proverb, about a little knowledge not always being a good thing, is quite right. I always think, the more you know, the more you know you don't know. Obviously that doesn't apply to you, possibly because you don't know enough.

i'll repost again

and the wonderful things about the uk and it's people, which I love and which make me glad I live here do not mitigate or cancel these things out

what is racist about suggesting that the uk has a history of doing some pretty fucking ghastly things in the name of the nation

and really, i can't think of a better phrase than bloodthirsty marauders to describe colonisers/colonialism

do you reckon a few railways built cancels that out?

is it impossible for you to hold those two thoughts in your mind simulatneously, that horrific things have been done in the name of patriotism, and that despite this there are still wonderful things about the country?

fwiw i originally wrote my post in response to someone who suggested that the uk goes to war not our of hatred or base motive but for noble reasons

and how cynical to wear a poppy, decry the horrors of war and weep never again whilst waving off the latest troops

But you didn't just suggest that. You can say it outright if you like, it's true enough. You said Britain was a land of bloodthirsty marauders and you stand by it. Why are you "repost"ing (sic)? You have a very simplistic view.

Is it impossible? No of course don't you understand what a complex subject this is? It takes deeper knowledge to understand how one can deplore a history, but love one's country: oppose a war, but recognise and respect the sacrifices of the armed forces serving there.

Incidentally, where are you from? You have made this about nationhood. What is yours?

Appletrees - isn't the maxim that the more you know the more you know that you don't know?

Yes that's what I said. You put an extra that in. Same thing.

xkcd.com/386/

All getting a bit foam flecked and incoherent there Chibi.

The Earwig at least has the odd few points based in reality eg: "there are still plenty of our troops coming back with PTSD. Services for them are crap and government ignores them as they did in previous wars." . And she accepted my hug earlier .

snort

you seem to be trying to imply that i think the uk is eeeevil and everyone else is as pure as the driven snow

that could not possibly be further from what i am saying

and i am confused as to how thinking that a country can be many things - good, bad and all others in between is a 'simplistic view'

i am british, but what difference would my nationality make if it were otherwise? were you going to give me a list of bad things my country has done, would that 'show me' do you think?

i have already said in matters of war, no one's hands are clean

and again how cynical to say never again whilst waving off the latest shipment of troops

never again indeed

except for the next time

or the next