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AIBU?

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Original poster

to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

960 replies

GallumDrawnAndQuartered · 03/11/2010 16:23

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

OP posts:
UnseenAcademicalMum · 03/11/2010 23:54

freerangeeggs - isn't it somewhat immoral to portray your political viewpoints in your teaching?

"Besides, who could possibly argue that the world wars could not have been resolved in a more civilised way? One ended with two nuclear bombs and the other ended with almost an entire generation of young men wiped out!"

Yes, and isn't that exactly why we should remember? So we don't repeat past mistakes? Isn't that the value of history?

(and btw don't forget, yes, the war ended with nuclear bombs, but the Japanese had kamikaze pilots. How much longer would the war have gone on for and how many more lifes of allied troops would have been lost without those bombs?)

Heracles · 03/11/2010 23:56

I'll be pinning a labia to my top to remember all the 14 year old cunts who should know better, the cunts.

Heracles · 03/11/2010 23:59

and btw don't forget, yes, the war ended with nuclear bombs, but the Japanese had kamikaze pilots. How much longer would the war have gone on for and how many more lifes of allied troops would have been lost without those bombs?

Not very. They didn't surrender after the bombs dropped, they surrendered when the Russians invaded Manchuria and they didn't fancy being overwhelmed by the Soviets, the sensible folk.

lilolilmanchester · 04/11/2010 00:03

I'd say if your DD is so vehemently pacifist and anti-war that she wouldn't wear a red poppy, she shouldn't be participating in the service at all - I think she was right on that.
Not sure why she'd get into trouble if she explains her reasons - they can select someone else to represent the house, surely?

I do think it's important that, regardless of her views of war, she understands what the day is about - remembering the loved ones people just like her lost - brothers, fathers, uncles, cousins etc - when they had NO choice, they were conscripted.

(not saying we should not support service people who have joined up by choice, far from it - the above was just to make a point to gallum's daughter)

PURPLESWAN · 04/11/2010 00:05

Im sure we would all like conflict to be avoided over a cup of tea and a shortbread, unfortunately thats not what happens.

Surely our military's primary job is peace keeping now...I seem to remember I think it was Jeremy Clarkson saying he was in a helicopter and the Taliban were shooting missiles at it but our military were "not allowed to respond"

hmc · 04/11/2010 00:05

Have read thread and noticed a few remarks about WWI

Lets clear a couple of things up about WWI - yes it was a defensive war on the part of the Triple Entente (Russia, Britain and France). Back in 1912 (Admiral von Muller's Diary entry) a meeting involving the Kaiser and his General Staff planned for war but concluded they would postpone "the great fight for one and half years" so that the army and navy could prepare, but that "war is unavoidable and the sooner the better".

Reflecting on the outbreak of hostilities Prince Lichnowsky (German ambassador) was to admit "On our side nothing, absolutely nothing was done to preserve peace".

The German administration at the time, dominated by Prussian aristocratic militarists was hell bent on aggressive annexationist expansionism. Bethman Hollwegs statement of war aims in September 1914 envisaged annexation of Liege and Verviers in Belgium, a commercial treaty with France ensuring her economic dependence on Germany, Luxemburg as a vassal state etc etc.

It really wasn't just WWII that was justified.

Back to the Op - wouldn't have a problem with your dd wearing a white poppy if she had the first fecking clue as to the background of these conflicts. She doesn't - I know it.

Donki · 04/11/2010 00:06

Ah, I thought you meant that red poppies had 900 years of history as symbols of remembrance. The context and history behind conflict in modern Europe is a much more complex subject - although a bright and interested 14 year old might well have read around enough to be developing an informed opinion. Of course they might not have read enough too - but then I suspect that most people discussing this haven't made an in depth study of the root causes of conflict in Europe either. Whilst I (and several of my friends) are interested in social and military history (sad wargamers that some of them are Grin, I would not claim to have made an in depth study of the subject myself. I do not however think that that invalidates my reasons for wearing a white poppy.

UnseenAcademicalMum · 04/11/2010 00:06

Heracles, as I understand it, the two things happened more or less simultaneously.

hmc · 04/11/2010 00:08

"but then I suspect that most people discussing this haven't made an in depth study of the root causes of conflict in Europe either."

I have.

WingDad · 04/11/2010 00:11

I haven't read all 17 pages of this thread, purely because I fear there may be some very misguided comments contained there, though I may be wrong. However, I will say this:

Remembrance is not about whether you support conflicts past or present, or if you think certain wars should never have happened or shouldn't be happening. Well the fact of the matter is that they did happen and they are still happening, and thousands of young men and women have died because of it. Death in war is the ultimate sacrifice, literally for Queen and country. Some men did not ask to be involved in war, but were thrown into it and told to defend their country. Quite often that resulted in their death, which I feel we should never ever forget, we are in their debt.

The poppy symbolises that we will never forget the sacrifices that were made, and will always educate our young so that no more tragedies can occur on such a scale. It's nothing to do with personal views or opinions, it's just simply remembering the dead. It's as simple as that.

And the people degrading the armed forces? Get a life, please. I may not be a very smart man, but I do what I do because I love my country, not because they were attractive employers.

PURPLESWAN · 04/11/2010 00:13

Well said wing dad and on that note I MUST go as I realise I have forgotten to make sandwiches for tomorrow!

UnseenAcademicalMum · 04/11/2010 00:13

Absolutely, WingDad (and btw, I say this is a "forces child").

hmc · 04/11/2010 00:15

You're off to make sandwiches - at gone midnight!!!?

earwicga · 04/11/2010 00:18

'I'll be pinning a labia to my top to remember all the 14 year old cunts who should know better, the cunts.'

Brilliant! :o

Donki · 04/11/2010 00:19

hmc, I'm sure you have (especially having lurked on other threads where you have posted) - but then you are not most other people.

WingDad
I have not denigrated the armed forces. As a Quaker I would make different choices. I do not denigrate theirs.

The white poppy is also a symbol of remembrance with a long history. Remembering the dead. All of them.

Wearing it is a choice I make. Just as you choose to remember the dead with a red poppy. That is down to personal views and opinions.

Night all.

Rhinestone · 04/11/2010 00:24

General point - not everyone was conscripted. Some saw what was coming, and what Nazi Germany represented, and joined up voluntarily. Like someone close to me who was appalled at what was happening to the Jews in Germany and could see the threat that Britain faced.

By the way, I am by no means being anything less than respectful of those who served after being conscripted. Just wanted to make the point that we should be allowed to admire those who had the foresight to realise that the only way Nazi Germany could be stopped was militarily.

Rhinestone · 04/11/2010 00:25

Heracles, Earwicga - isn't it past your bedtime?

ithappenedinourfamilytoo · 04/11/2010 00:30

whatever the red poppy is meant to symbolise (sacrifice, remembrance, respect) it is also very much viewed as a symbol of support

Support for the fallen & for those who sacrificed, yes!

The red poppy has NEVER been used to support war! And anyone who thinks it is/was needs to read more about their origin, how, why & where they came about.

Heracles · 04/11/2010 00:30

You worry about your posts, Rhinestone, and let me worry about mine. You object to my light tone, I object to the public displays of handwringing, finger-waggling and grandstanding. Being a public forum we're both allowed the space to register our displeasure, no?

WingDad · 04/11/2010 00:34

Just realised how much my final paragraph resembles a certain film quote:

"I may not be a smart man, but I know what lurrve is." Blush

A fair point Donki, and I have to say that I don't particularly mind what people wear for Remembrance, but as long as they just stop to think "Gee, thanks lads, you did us proud." on the day, whether that's at a ceremony or just individually.

What's important is that we must never, ever forget what happened.

onmyfeet · 04/11/2010 01:20

pranma Wed 03-Nov-10 18:38:40

"The school has paid her the compliment of asking her to represent her house at a service of Remembrance.At 14 she is old enough to see the meaning behind it-it doesnt glorify war it remembers all those who gave their lives so that we could live in peace and freedom.A white poppy sticks 2 fingers up at that.She should have the courage to tell her head of house how she feels and let her place be taken by someone who will respect the occasion and understand the honour of being chosen."

I agree with the above quote.
14 years olds are so naive. But no reason to indulge her if it will(and it will, big time) insult people.

MaMoTTaT · 04/11/2010 01:24
Rhinestone · 04/11/2010 02:06

Well Heracles, allow me to register my displeasure at you calling respect for our war dead, and in some cases, people's personal grief, "...handwringing, finger-wagging and grandstanding."

You strike me as being rather unworthy of the freedoms that people died for.

GothAnneGeddes · 04/11/2010 02:18

Wing dad. Proud is not the word I would use, just deeply, deeply sad. But I know where you're coming from and will agree to differ.

savoycabbage · 04/11/2010 02:49

If the OP's daughter has such strong feelings, then she should not go to the service, regardless of the 'trouble' that she will get into at school. Surely that is part of what holding strong beliefs is all about. Standing up for them.

14 year old girls do sometimes develop strong views on things. I'm quite sure that almost every girl in my year at school was a vegetarian at some point. It's a part of growing up. But a Remembrance Day service is not the time for anti-war statements. Imagine if your 19 year old son was killed in Iraq and at the service was a child in a white poppy.