To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

I think that until you have tried living as a disabled child's carer, you are not entitled to an opinion.

I think it's up to the individual.

I think this thread is going to implode.

I know that had I had a positive result for Downs Syndrome after my Amnio I would have terminated the pregnancy despite having had IVF following fertillity issues and that would have been my choice and my choice alone (well, with my DH) and nothing anyone could say would have made me choose anything different.

Do what you want to do for yourself in the circumstances in which you live but don't expect other people to do what you would do.

well I can see where you are coming from(and I am the parent of a severely disabled child with a non testable DX) but be prepared to be flamed.

See, it depends on the abnormaility. I wasn't bothered about Downs.
What bothered me more recently, a woman in (yes I know) Daily Mail. IVF 1st baby. Tried for 2nd baby. Eventually with egg donor got pg with twins marriage broke up & she aborted them.

I couldn't ever have an abortion myself but would never judge others that do.

Although (awaits flaming) I do think the limit should be brought down to 12 weeks.

yep I think the limit should be the same for disabled babies and non ones, so up to birth for all

yes - I agree. Up to birth for all would be so much better. So few people abort after 20 weeks anyway that I doubt making it up to birth would have any effect on the figures for late abortion.

up to birth for all?

that is not abortion, that is just killing babies

I do have 2 children with disabilities, Colditz - but do not have the triple test etc when pg as it would make no difference to me or DP if the dc that I am currently pg with had some form of disability, especially as the problems my DD and DS2 have, only the heart problem that DD has can be checked in utero, and has been (by scan). Thankfully this baby does not have the same problem, but I wouldn't have terminated even if he had, because DD is managing it, and although she will have to have surgery on it soon, it wouldn't cross my mind to terminate a baby that had the same problem.

However, we are both sure that this is our last baby, whether it has disabilities or not, due to finances/ space/time. Most of the problems my dc have are not able to be tested for during pg, so it's kind of leaving it to chance. I don't see why anyone would terminate a much wanted pg because of downs syndrome, many DS people are now able to have an almost normal life expectancy, and to work etc.

I would only terminate if a problem was discovered that was either incompatible with life, or would cause that child severe, unrelenting pain every day of a short life.

but it would stop the discrimination pre birth,

I can undertsand totally OP. I am a carer of a severely disabled child.
I do think the limit should be the same and I think there needs to be some decent information given out. Alarmist stries pressurise poeple having tests. They aren't told that the majority of people with DS will leave long and happy lives, even independanlty and get married.

you don't stop people killing one social group by making it legal to kill everybody else

I think the limit should be lowered for everyone

abortions up to birth is just horrifying

'up to birth for all? shock

that is not abortion, that is just killing babies'

I agree. So why is it ok to kill disabled babies?

wow, a thread invoking Godwins law (or close) in the first post!

I may be wrong, but I think the issue for a lot of people is the question 'Who will care for the child when you are gone?'
Especially for older parents, also the ones more likely to have a child with DS.

I can see where you're coming from Colditz. I have never had to look after a disabled child 24 hours a day and so I can't say first hand what that's like.

However, I have worked extensively with children with learning disabilities (some very severe) and my sister has mild physical disabilities (which in fact impact very little on her life but which could have seemed offputting had my mum known about them before she was born). It struck me that though many families struggled, sometimes horribly, the love they had for their disabled children was in no way less than the love they had for their non-disabled children. The child was just as valid and cherished member of their family as anyone else. I'm sure though that if a lot of the mums had been told what they would face before their child was born they would have struggled to say yes to having the child. That's understandable but it just seems sad that so many children who could bring love to a family are rejected.

Another thing that worries me is that there is a big push on now to find a genetic cause for autism. One of the leading researchers in this area (who is a well-known racist) has made no secret of the fact that he wants to develop a prenatal test so autistic children can be aborted. If this is the next step then where does it stop?

I don't think it is DeadlyLampshade

I think the limit should be lowered for everyone

I am really shocked and disturbed to see people advocating abortions for all up to birth though

it is murder, pure and simple

at EvilAllenPoe.

I love the idea that this is not shitstirring and yet the OP clearly knows that the thread will become a 20 page long thread about disability rights.

although I at present do not have a child with disabilities I have worked within the field pretty much all my working life

one point for me would be everyone is entitled to life but a good worthwhile dignified existence with love and care and opportunity for fulfilment

each family/ mother should decide for themselves because of all that it implies
you have a child then you care for them until they are able to care for themselves, for many that will never be the case, that means a life time of care for the parents with all that it implies
but also continued care responsibilities for siblings / family

it is a hard decision which really you should not be quick to judge

I agree green. Same limit for everyone. Either its ok to kill babies up to birth or its not.
And I think its not and the limit of 24 weeks should remain the same for all babies.

Loudlass - if you do have children with disabilities then you're entitled to spout your opinion far and wide for all I care.

Listening to people with a perfectly normal child ramble on about Abortion Is Eugenics is like listening to a millionare ramble on about No Foreign Holidays Is Neglect.

Unless you've lived it, you shouldn't proclaim about it.

Writer, who's the researcher?

I have a friend who works with children with very severe special needs and I was so so grateful to have her to speak to when I had my Nuchal test and Amnio. Thankfully she was able to give me a clear insight into what it really is like to parent a child - then adult - with severe special needs and disability. Thank goodness she wasn't in any way judgemental.

Some of the worst disabilities (including my own childs) happen at birth or afterwards.

Pre natal test for autism?

Is that real?

And I had no idea that babies with a potential disability can be aborted up to full term. :(