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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

734 replies

WriterofDreams · 28/10/2010 13:03

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

OP posts:
WriterofDreams · 28/10/2010 14:08

I wish that was the case Trillian but Watson is a vocal patron of the Autism Genome Project and so does give legitimacy to the more right-wing views that such projects can appeal to.

OP posts:
WriterofDreams · 28/10/2010 14:09

Zombie I'm not trying to be glib but surely one is enough? Or is ten not as bad as twenty?

OP posts:
GreenStinkingStumpSleeves · 28/10/2010 14:10

It is stupid and damaging (IMO) because it is to write a person off - crack addiction for many people is something that can and will be surmounted

there is nothing to guarantee that a person who takes your £200 - because you offer at a time when they are in pain and at their weakest and would do ANYTHING for relief - will not go on to conquer the addiction and have a family

you have no right to write people off

and even if you were right that no person with an addiction can ever be a decent parent, to offer somebody money to undergo surgery is wrong on every level. Monstrous, IMO

GreenStinkingStumpSleeves · 28/10/2010 14:11

maybe we should start another thread though Grin

colditz · 28/10/2010 14:11

Should we ban models and tv presenters from having cosmetic surgery to enhance their earnings then?

colditz · 28/10/2010 14:12

Um yes, probably Blush

Sorry writerofdreams

SuchProspects · 28/10/2010 14:13

Eugenics and disability rights aren't the same thing.

It's eugenics only if the process intends to significantly change the genetic composition of the population.

Down's is normally a genetic mutation for that individual, not something that was passed down in that form. So to the OPs original question - is screening out Down's Syndrome babies Eugenics? No. Not really. This doesn't touch on the disability rights aspect of aborting a foetus when it might have trisomy 21.

Some screening might be Eugenics. Autism screening for instance, if done as standard could, potentially, significantly change the genetic composition of the population.

GreenStinkingStumpSleeves · 28/10/2010 14:15

no, bnut equally we shouldn't offer beforehand to pay them more if they have their boobs done

and we shouldn't offer money for them to "enhance" themselves in a way which is going to prevent them from having a family later in life

odd comparison IMO

quietlysuggests · 28/10/2010 14:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2shoeprintsintheblood · 28/10/2010 14:17

"valiumskeleton Thu 28-Oct-10 13:46:18
lampshade, that's ridiculous. NObody could have aborted YOUR child.

Sure if a different sperm had fertilised the egg you'd have a totally different child and not the one you have."

my dd was disabled at birth nothing to do with sperm(I presume DL's is the same, cock up at bith = severely disabled baby, no way you can test for that thank god)

TandB · 28/10/2010 14:18

I gaped at 2shoes's post about raising the abortion limit to birth. And then I realised what (I very much hope) she was getting at. If a disabled baby can be aborted right up to birth, then why should a non-disabled baby be treated as more of a person?

Once a child is capable of surviving outside the womb then, as Greensleeves said, the line between abortion and infanticide starts looking very fine indeed. Obviously there are situations where a child might be capable of survival based on gestation, but so seriously disabled that it could not survive, but where the issue is one of quality of life, I don't really see why abortions up to birth are even relevant. If you are going to find out about a serious medical condition, you are almost always going to find out between 14 and 22 weeks. How many people are realistically going to sit on that information until 37 weeks and then decide to terminate and put themselves through that horrific experience of labouring to give birth to a dead baby?

I would actually like to see the abortion limit set as early as possible while still allowing for the current pre-natal tests to take place and be effective.

There may be circumstances where someone finds out later than 22 weeks that there is a serious problem. I think that an ethics committee might be the appropriate way to decide if it is appropriate to offer a late termination on a case by case basis.

I am aware that my views are almost certainly coloured by the fact that there have been a small number of late abortions for very minor, effectively cosmetic, defects including club feet. I was born with a very severely deformed club foot for which I had 14 operations. While these incidents are few and far between, I cannot be comfortable with a situation where it is legal to terminate a child with such a minor and correctable problem.

I actually have difficulty drawing any distinction in my own mind between aborting a viable baby late in the pregnancy and killing that child. I can't imagine that any mother who has had to make that hideous decision for medical reasons, feels that there is much of a difference either. I feel that by allowing abortions up to birth for disabled children, we are encouraged to think of a disabled child as disposable, and their death as less of a tragedy for the parents. I wouldn't imagine that bereaved parents who are forced to terminate a much-wanted child feel any less bereaved than someone who loses a child after birth, but I wouldn't think that they would receive anything approaching the same level of sympathy.

Hope some of that makes some sense.

foreverastudent · 28/10/2010 14:19

I know someone who had a late 20+ weeks termination of a twin pregnancy. One twin would either die in utero or shortly after birth. The other seemed fine but did have a higher than average chance of having some kind of abnormality.

I couldn't have done it but I'd fight for her right to make that choice.

DamselInDisgrace · 28/10/2010 14:19

WoD: just to clarify James Watson isn't actually involved in the Autism Genome Project.

2shoeprintsintheblood · 28/10/2010 14:20

kungfupanndab glad you got it, sadly others didn't

RunnerHasbeen · 28/10/2010 14:22

I had the data for Scotland last year and there were 7 abortions above 24 weeks, all which were classed as fatal and in some cases dangerous for the mother.

It is a bit silly to group all possible disability in together. There is an enormous difference between behavioural problems and not being able to eat/move/see/hear/breathe on your own and being in considerable pain.

I'm offended at the suggestion that people research the causes of an illness in order to eliminate people with the condition. The vast majority of people with health problems would not be here at all if health research was never done to help them - the opposite of your alarmist and pathetic opinion. Grow up.

TandB · 28/10/2010 14:22

Thank goodness I read it right, 2shoes. I had a horrible vision of you coming back and shouting at me for misinterpreting you.
But I was fairly sure of my interpretation, having seen so many of your other posts.

adriennemole · 28/10/2010 14:23

I'm one of the 8% who chose not to terminate after my baby was diagnosed with DS.
I do however feel it is an individualds right to choose to continue a pregnancy or not provided they have been given adequate and up to date information on the condition and it's this is where I feel we fail.

Since having my son and helping out on a prenatal testing and dx helpline I have been shocked at some of the awful ways couples have been given a positive dx.
There are many doctors who are happy to give their own negative views on what having a milder condition such as DS means and it's not unkown for women to feel pushed into invasive testing or terminations without any support or time to think things through.

The DS association are running a camapaign at the moment called tell it right from the start which is trying to educate medical professionals about DS and to encourage a more positive approach in breaking a dx to parents.
In the US it is now a legal requirement to follow a set guideline when breaking the news and this includes up to date and balanced information about the condition. Maybe this is where we should be heading.

WriterofDreams · 28/10/2010 14:23

I take your point suchprospects although if we're being pedantic it is possible for people with DS to have children themselves, some of whom could have DS, others not. It is rare but it does happen.

I agree with what you say quietlysuggests Because I know so many people with autism and DS it disgusted me that the medical system of a country could advocate the termination of people just because of those disabilities. Simply the idea that having a disability makes you a more worthy candidate for killing surely says something very strongly about the value of a disabled person?

OP posts:
2shoeprintsintheblood · 28/10/2010 14:23

it's a relief that someone got it.
brilliant post kungfupannda

TandB · 28/10/2010 14:24

Off the top of my head, I think it was something like 6 late abortions for cleft palate/club feet/similar, but I seem to remember there being some suggestion that a few more might have been disguised by the gestational age being changed by a few days.

altinkum · 28/10/2010 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WriterofDreams · 28/10/2010 14:27

Damsel if I say how I know I could possibly identify myself but I am 100% definite that Watson is involved in AGP. However, since he outed himself a couple of years ago as a racist I doubt the connection is well publicised.

OP posts:
WriterofDreams · 28/10/2010 14:29

Altinkum I don't understand the first sentence of your post sorry.

OP posts:
Faaamily · 28/10/2010 14:29

I have no opinion on this at all, other than that there should be a choice and it should be the mother's.

And I am the parent of an autistic child.

2shoeprintsintheblood · 28/10/2010 14:29

I love the eay people are shocked at what I said.
why?
so it is ok to kill a viable baby if they have a disability, but not a "healthy" baby.....

(dd is healthy, more so than most nt kids, yet she is severely disabled.)