To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

I agree totally with what you say about ABA arses. I was highlighting the positive side of ABA but there were definitely things that happened when I was a tutor that I totally did not agree with and which in fact, as you say, were abusive.

I agree that it is not acceptable to push children to learn by any means necessary. ABA is effective in many but not all circumstances and needs to be practiced by people who are caring and sensible and genuinely have the best interests of the children at heart (rather than being on a mission to prove ABA is infallible, which some people were in my experience.)

Ideally I would like to see a happy medium between the two approaches that I experienced. For all its failings the traditional special school was a lovely place to be and most of the children loved it. The drawback was that the children tended not be adequately challenged and so they didn't make as much progress as they should have. For example, I was teaching an adult with Down Syndrome who was ambulatory and could follow instructions (despite being non-verbal) but who was still in nappies. To me that is totally unacceptable and is the result of poor teaching on the part of the school rather than any lack of ability on his part. It certainly wouldn't happen in an ABA school.

oh arses- I agree completely. The biggest problem that ds1 had in mainstream was that HE was expected to behave 'normally'. Allowances were not to be made as that 'wouldn't be fair on the other children'. I used to try and point out that it wasn't particularly fair on ds1 that he had the language development of a 12 month old, but I was talking to a brick wall.

What I love about the specialist schemes he attends (and school) is that he can be himself. The curriculum and environment are adapted to suit his needs and slowly he is encouraged/educated to be able to access as much of the 'mainstream' world as he can, but in an environment where he can be safe, and - big one- he is understood.

Most NHS SALTS simply do not have the hands on experience to deal with a child as complex as ds1.

I have to say that we haven't really experience lack of challenge at SLD school or his respite centre. They have high expectations, clear goals and clear ways in which those are to be achieved - but also recognise when he is stressed etc.

When ds1 went to SLD school he ate less than 10 items of food. No meat, no fish, no cheese, no eggs, no fruit no veg. His teacher decided this needed correcting and spent a year working with him very slowly until he was eating widely and sensibly. We were so grateful - I had a baby and a toddler as well at the time and simply couldn't give ds1 1:1 at mealtimes which was needed to get him eating. He now has an excellent appetite. But it needed a very careful and knowledgable approach.

2shoes "I also wonder how many mistakes are made, how many people are told their baby has DS, and terminate, when it doesn't, would be interested in Stats on that"

Don't know stats but I've personally met someone who was told her son had DS but insisted on having him anyway and actually he has no form of disability at all.

Arses your post about the little boy sobbing broke my heart.

That's a pretty telling point - that people would no doubt be revolted and horrified if a late termination took place on a child who turned out to be "normal". That reaction would suggest that for most people, it is something that is fundamentally wrong. So if something is wrong, why is it less wrong when it happens to someone with a disability?

that really sums it up doesn't it

'why is it less wrong when it happens to someone with a disability?'

I think sometimes if the abnormailty is severe people may in some cases feel at least the baby would not suffer.

There is a big difference between someone being born with DS, for example, and Anencephaly. I would have a TOP if the baby would die or suffer but I declined further testing when triple test was positive for DS. I think people consider 'quality of life' in terms of if they can afford another baby, in a stable relationship etc and also if the baby will be reasonably healthy. Some people feel it unfair to knowingly bring a baby into the world when it's birth could have been prevented (not neccesarily my view, just something that i have read from others). I personally feel it is up to the individual mother/family to decide what they can cope with. I do feel sad if there is loss of life to any baby, that is still possible even when you are pro choice.