To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

Sorry valium I don't really understand your post, particularly the bit about children becoming a luxury, could you explain that?

BTW I'm aware nuchal fold testing is available in Ireland.

"My point is that it seems acceptable for a couple who genuinely want a child and have planned for a child to reject that child because he or she is disabled"

it is acceptable. I had IVF. I would have had an abortion had any chromosonal abnormalities come up in the amnio. My choice. What may not be acceptable to you is your own personal choice. You can't make other people do what you would do.

There isn't yet a prenatal test for autism but researchers hope to develop one.

I am intrigued as to who this researcher is and what evidence you have that his research is in order to eliminate all autistic children? Also what evidence you have for calling him a racist? And how this is relevant, unless he is proposing to abort all autistic children of a certain race only.

Agreed Greenstinking. I was reading recently that abortion is illegal in so many countries, the worst being South America. Terrible.
Its a seperate issue though to the abortion of disabled children through fear or desite for the perfect child.
What would the pro-disability abortion people do if they were the 1 in 400 whose child has cerebral palsy? Its not testable for but that 1 in 400 risk is for all pregnancies.
Generally people say 'oh we'd cope and love them' and they do. So why is it different knowing in advance.

"European nations practised eugenics well into the 1960s". as did Canada here forgive the source

I think its a fallacy to suggest that every woman who tests positive for anomalies then goes on to abort. As a pp has pointed out already, most abortions are on perfectly healthy foetuses.

Some will test positive and continue.
Some test positive and abort.

The reasons behind the decisions include the severity of the anomaly picked up and other factors such as siblings already with a genetic condition, wealth, support and other family circumstances.

Suggesting its eugenics doesn't consider the wider picture.

If it was only disabled babies being aborted or if every disabled baby was aborted then that would be eugenics, but that just isn't the case.

Well I don't understand your post. If you're aware that nuchal fold testing is available in Ireland then what is the point of YOUR original post?!

If there is any sort of eugenics going on at the moment in society, it is that having children is becoming a luxury only the wealthy can afford. People are derided for bringing children into the World if they are on benefits. People on benefits are expected to just accept that they shouldn't have children!!! This is the thinking of middle-class tax payers! Only tax payers have the right to procreate.

DuellingFanjo, totally agree with you. Seeking to control what other people do and what other people feel even!

92% of babies with Down's syndrome detected are aborted.
Thats very high.
If people know someone with DS, that rate goes right down.
Suggests its fear of the unknown and fear of disabled people.

Anyway, I wil bow out as this sort of thread is upseting to me. Knowing there are poeple who would have aborted my child and carry those thoughts in their heads.

"Knowing there are poeple who would have aborted my child and carry those thoughts in their heads."

no one can abort your child. They can only abort their own child/foetus.

Whether or not the crack baby's problems are led by the actual crack or by the actual poverty, if you can offer someone £200 to be sterilised, they don't want a baby as much as they want £200.

And by sterilising the mother who will take the £200, (and, I hope, providing damn good aftercare) you have, for whatever reason, prevented a child being born to an addicted impoverished family who do not (as proven by the fact they would have taken £200 for the child not to be born) have the child's best interests at heart.

Yes babyheave, a lot of people who find out at 20 wks that their baby has DS for example are still glad to have 20 weeks to prepare, accept it before they tell the world, learn about the issues their child will face.

In some other cases, there will be a lot of operations and it gives the mtoher/couple time to find out.

The world isn't full of people who fling a baby out of their basket becuase it has a cleft palate for example.

Almost always, a baby is either wanted or unplanned from the get go and THAT is the factor in whether or not an abortion is performed.

I never claimed this researcher wants to eliminate all autistic children, he wants to develop a prenatal test for autism so people have the option to abort.

Babyheave what shocked me was that 92% of women told their child with have Down Syndrome abort. Link: www.abortionreview.org/index.php/site/article/626/

Surely some of the conditions for which a mother chooses to abort are incompatable with life? Certainly that was the case with the only person I know who chose to terminate post twenty weeks. And it was devastating. She didn't merrily abort because her baby wasn't perfect, she terminated because she felt it was better for her psychologically. The baby didn't have a hope of surviving once born.

lampshade, that's ridiculous. NObody could have aborted YOUR child.

Sure if a different sperm had fertilised the egg you'd have a totally different child and not the one you have.

"I think its a fallacy to suggest that every woman who tests positive for anomalies then goes on to abort."

I had an amnio because my triple test came up as 1/60 but I probably wouldn't have had an abortion if she had had Down's syndrome as it was past 20 weeks when we got the results. I just wanted to know so we could prepare ourselves mentally beforehand.

Personally I wouldn't abort anyone's child. it's up to them if they want to abort their own child, but like many posters, i think the tests should me done as early as possible and an abortion arranged and completed within 1 week of those tests (if an abortion is desired)

I was just pointing out that eugenics can mean other things aside from abortion, and that I don't think it is always a bad thing.

Contraception is eugenics. Sterilisation is Eugenics.

my point being it's a miracle any of us is here as we could all have been up to 1 million different version of ourself.

I actually agree that it is strange (and getting close to eugenics) to have different rules on abortion depending on whether the foetus has abnormalities or not.

Logically, if an abortion is "killing a baby" (as the OP says) then clearly it is wrong in all circumstances. That applies whether the "baby" has abnormalities or not. I cannot understand people who say "abortion is wrong except for disabilities". If you believe it's wrong to kill a foetus, why is it less wrong to kill a disabled foetus than to kill a non-disabled foetus?

(Though personally my belief is abortion is not wrong.)

sorry colditz (I like you) but thst's crap IMO

there have been periods in my life where I would have given my liver for £200

people go through different periods in their lives, they make cock-ups, they learn and they change

sometimes having a baby can be a powerful catalyst for change in itself

I have two children now though and I don't think they have suffered because I wasn't always a perfect person

paying people to undergo surgery which permanently removes a part of their future is just wrong - I am staggered that anyone really thinks this is OK

There seems to be a big study into the genetic causes of autism. The researchers and funders hope that this will lead to quicker diagnosis and better treatment.

There are also hopes for a prenatal test, but some researchers in the field have raised concerns about how such a test would be used. (This does seem to be the aborting potential geniuses line, rather than about the intrinsic value of people with autism).

you don't think there's something of a logical error -

my mum had a child out of wedlock at a time when that was frowned upon. If she'd had an abortion - would that mean she was prejudiced against children born out of wedlock? or would it is be just her decision about her circumstances rather than a general judgement? -

would the fact she chose to have the child give her the right to say to others choosing the abortion that they are hateful people who 'would have killed her baby?'

i think not.
when you have an abortion, you make a decision for yourself and your circumstances, it is not a general judgement about anyone elses children.

and testing can mean that you make important medical preprations that save the life of your child at birth, there are conditions requiring immediate attention that if born normally (ie, in a bog standard hospital late at night) would probably die. If they are born with the right specialists at hand..then they may have a chance. testing isn't just about the possibility of abortion.

I would like that test to be available for my daughter when she goes on to have a family. I really would like the experience of motherhood to be easier for her.

I took all those fish oils when I was pregnant with dc2. He still has autism.