To be annoyed at the smuggy smugness? why is childbirth such a competion?

[AddictedIsFeelingHappy]

i'm 38+3 weeks pregnant and am getting irrationally annoyed by every thing.

a friend of mine had her baby yesterday and on facebook (i know its the spawn of satan) her status is along the lines of

'baby x arrived weeighing 8lb 4oz in a birthing pool, i had no pain relief drugs, even with a very long labour. come on ladies we can do what nature intended'

now i'm already alittle annoyed because she was due the day before me and has already had her baby, and mine is still not here. (irrational i know!)
but why put that about the drugs? you dont get a medal for doing it all naturally and it doesnt make you a failure if you do need drugs.

gah now i'm all annoyed and wound up and cant sleep [hangry]

Giving birth naturally with no drugs is a fantastically interesting human experience. I am very glad indeed to have had the opportunity to give birth and to be fully conscious of doing so. My sister, who has three beautiful DCs all born by non-elective CS, is slightly of me!

That is the point!

But if you don't care about the birth experience, go ahead and have an epidural or even a GA!

I too thought it an interesting experience, Bonsoir. And actually quite enjoyed it. No problem there.

But have seen way too many nature things/bred too many animals/read too much about evolution to believe in the Nature Intended Everybody To Have A Lovely Time.

And have a slight suspicion that the wheelchairs and operations and syringe feeding that have been part of my life every since were not what Nature Intended but are just part of Human Being Muddling Through.

Human childbirth is, very tragically, not one of the things nature is especially good and reliable about .

Mind you, it's not very good at fish either (which is my other experience). Stuck in the birth passage, born with two heads, eaten by the mother...

Or rather, I suppose it is good and a high proportion of "wastage" is actually part of the plan.

I think where we go wrong is in assuming that Nature's plan involves all her creatures making it to adulthood. Which school should have taught us is not the case.

I agree, I think we are very ill-prepared these days for when things don't go perfectly.

If I look back only two generations at my own family, many children did not make it right through life - disability, illness, war all intervened very frequently.

My greatgrandmother was considered a bit of a miracle in her day because all her 11 children made it to adulthood- unheard of in her village. On the down side, my grandfather had no recollection of her ever playing with him or having fun with him- all her time was taken up by nursing one or another of her children.

"Healthy babies being the only thing that matters may be a cliche but like many cliches it is there because it is true". It's not true. It wasn't true for me and it's not true for other people. Getting through birth without feeling traumatised was important to me.

"Easy breastfeeding vs birth how nature intended?"

Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Having AVOIDABLE interference in birth can and often does complicate postnatal recovery and breastfeeding.

Almost all professionals involved in birth say that vastly more women are having interventions than is necessary to produce healthy babies.

And nobody is talking about 'having a lovely time'. Birth is horrible and hard for almost all of us. It's about getting a mum and a baby through labour in the best mental and physical health possible.

"Birth is horrible and hard for almost all of us. It's about getting a mum and a baby through labour in the best mental and physical health possible."

I agree, and I think it is also about minimising the long-term after effects of childbirth, not just reducing the pain and effort of the moment.

I absolutely agree with tittybangbang's last post.

If I thought that people were inwardly snorting at my hopes for a 'natural' birth (sorry - but that is what a birth without drugs is called) then I would be really disappointed in them. It's completely wrong to wish intervention on people just so they know that birth is sometimes difficult and painful. Not every woman who gives birth without drugs, and then dares to talk about it, is being smug and not every woman who plans a natural birth will end up screaming for all the drugs under the sun.

I think it's really horrible that so many people want to retaliate with their stories about things which went disasterously wrong, almost as if to say 'if you plan this then the opposite will happen'.

I do really feel for those people who have disabled children as a result of the birth process but that can happen even when the birth isn't medicalised too.

sorry - that should be 'even when the birth is medicalised'

yes the facebook status could be seen as a bit much, specially for someone who allows themselves to feel guilty about the way their birth turned out, but I bet that wasn't the person's intention

Dueling, I don't for a moment supposes that Riven wants to "retaliate" with her story of her dd's birth just to be nasty or depress other people. But if I were in her shoes, I would find it really hurtful to read that it was just a case of "come on ladies, you can do it, this is what Nature intended".

What a lot of us are saying is, yes we are happy for people to have natural births, we are happy if things go well for them, but we strongly resent any suggestion that everybody Ought To Be Able To Do as it is Intended.

Fiw my first birth was pretty natural (and untraumatic) and dd was not damaged by the birth process, but by genetics. Which presumably is also part of Nature's Intentions.

But I still don't get this idea that after giving birth you are so hormonal that you can get away with saying anything. I was on a ward with a number of ladies who had had serious complications and I wouldn't have dreamt of crowing over my natural birth: imho childbirth is no excuse for lack of manners. Indeed I saw so much caring and compassion in there that smugness would be the last thing I would associate with giving birth.

Slightly different to make this comment on facebook than to crow to someone's face. In terms of intent anyway.

I said "let's have another one" almost as soon as DS was born. I believe they were still trying to control my large PPH in fact (nature intended for us to be dead by that point). In my case I'm pretty sure it was the drugs talking though...

""come on ladies we can do what nature intended""

I read that quite differently to most of you. It's encouragement from a woman who had done it and is on a high. Giving birth to babies is 'what nature intended' isn't it? It doesn't matter how it is actually acheived - it is the giving birth, ie bringing a child into the light, that matters.

Yes, she's crowing! Because she is feeling fantastic and proud that she has produced life. But is she saying 'come on you less mortals, try and do what I did so brilliantly'? No. She's saying "come on you (fellow) women, you can do it too!" IE give birth. It's encouragement.

Why does this subject make everyone so chippy?

Agree with LeQueen. Some women see labour and childbirth as a defining moment; others more as a "do I have to?" moment- something you've got to just deal with to get the baby.

Unlike Fallen Madonna my post birth comment was "Next time I'm having a section" to which my Obs said "dont be silly- you've done the hard work- the next one will just fall out"

From another pov then. I am incredibly smug that despite a condition that makes carrying a child to full term very difficult AND a c-section incredibly dangerous, a very small fanjo/pelvis area inherited from my mother and very low blood pressure I produced a child.
I don't care that it was possibly the most medicalised birth ever and it took a very strong doctor quite a while and two instruments to get her out - it happened.
I think THAT is an experience of human determination vs nature and a whole lot more interesting that sitting at home in some lukewarm water listening to whale music and a midwife (hate midwives).
I'll be doing it again!
So.. I disagree because women have been doing birth and bf for thousands upon thousands of years. For us to pretend in any way that we are special is just nonsense. What medical advances can do for births? NOW that is amazing. Isn't progress great...
I think the facebook status is a bit pathetic and as someone else pointed out a sign that this lady has not had much life experience.
Lucky for you that all your babies were healthy then Titty - allowing you to worry about something like bf-ing in the wake of the births. It would be very different if you hadn't have been so lucky I'd think.

GoreRenewed, hate to tell you this, but for every woman to give birth to a live baby is not what nature intended. Evolution simply wouldn't work without a certain amount of wastage. It's just that no woman is prepared to supply the wastage.

LeQueen - I don't agree. You can have done an awful lot of exciting, interesting things with your life, have masses of achievements to your name, and still think that giving birth was the mostest . It all comes down to personal priorities.

OK, cory I take your point. As it happens I don't actually think 'nature' intended anything as it doesn't exist as a conscious entity. But it is a natural and reasonable assumption that a pregnancy will lead to a live baby. It is being used in this case as verbal shortcut for 'what we expect to happen' I guess.

"But I still don't get this idea that after giving birth you are so hormonal that you can get away with saying anything. I was on a ward with a number of ladies who had had serious complications and I wouldn't have dreamt of crowing over my natural birth"

Errr, no. And if I'd just climbed Kilamanjaro I wouldn't go into a ward full of paraplegics and shout - 'I've just climbed a mountain, hurrah!' But she didn't say this on the postnatal ward. She posted it on her Facebook page. Seriously - context is everything!

" But, for a lot of women, although giving birth is a memorable experience, they have done a lot of other things in their life which they found equally challenging, and life-changing. It's simply not the be-all and end-all".

Are you an elite athlete then? Or a polar explorer? I've done loads of things in my life - including travelling all over the world, doing three degrees, seeing my dad through the last few weeks and days of his life, and holding down challenging and rewarding jobs. Still think that giving birth was physically and emotionally the hardest 24 hours I've ever experienced, bar the night my dad died. Would be very interested to know what YOU'VE done that was more physically challenging or equally rewarding as giving birth. Would you like to share it with us?

"Lucky for you that all your babies were healthy then Titty allowing you to worry about something like bf-ing in the wake of the births. It would be very different if you hadn't have been so lucky I'd think".

Yes - I'd be even more worried about my babies having my milk. Breastmilk can be a life-saver for poorly and pre-term babies.

And the largest drop in infant and maternal mortality in the UK happened when most babies were still born at home and when the C/S rate was less than 5%. It happened because women after the war had good antenatal care and were well-nourished, not because of advances in obstetric medicine.

"others more as a "do I have to?" moment- something you've got to just deal with to get the baby."

Well the point is - you do have to! So why not do everything you can to try to get the best possible emotional and physical outcome?

It's not about being bitchy.

The OP is about someone talking about what was a positive experience this was for them (fine) and then intimating that everyone should be able to have the same experience if they just put their back into it (not fine).

And the context is important - it's her facebook page which includes the OP in it - who is unable to have an intervention-free birth. So to write that on your page, when you know fine well that we can't "all do it" is unplesant.

What I have done that was way more challenging than giving birth was bringing up a dd who believed she would never walk again and getting her to the stage where she was confident to go on a stage and dance- knowing that she could collapse any moment. That was far more overwhelming than the birthing moment.

And I have certainly had other moments in my life -both to do with children and with my professional career- that have been equally rewarding and challenging. We don't all have to have exactly the same lives or feel exactly the same thing; I'm not failing as a mum if I admit that I feel an excitement that is equally strong about the work I hope to leave behind me. Or are only men allowed to care about that?

"I'm not failing as a mum if I admit that I feel an excitement that is equally strong about the work I hope to leave behind me. Or are only men allowed to care about that?"

How do we get from 'giving birth may be one of the most exciting and rewarding experiences of a woman's life' to 'we all have to feel that birth is one of the most rewarding experiences of a woman's life, and if she doesn't think that she's a crap mum?' Where does this defensiveness come from?

Why do we end up polarising this issue in the way we do? And actually it's completely pointless trying to compare the things we do in the rest of our lives with the night we give birth.

All I know is the night I gave birth and held my babies in my arms for the first time was the highpoint of my existence so far. Maybe if I'd written a Booker prize winning novel or won and Olympic medal that the bliss and triumph involved in having a baby would be eclipsed. But I doubt it.

I agree that it is the FB poster's "come on ladies we can do what nature intended" that comes across as smug and annoying. If she'd left that bit off, it would have been fine.

I am planning to have our first at home (no whalesong, but possibly Chicago!) because I think that is what would suit me psychologically and actually be more likely to minimise pain for me. If all goes well and I have the birth I want, yes, I will be proud of that. All it will reflect though is my knowledge of myself, not anyone else.

I would never presume to think that what is right for me is right for all women because that's just silly. Every woman is an individual and what's right for one may be hell for another woman.

Also, to anyone who is smug about 'natural' things, point out to them that poison ivy is also natural.

So, OP, no, YANBU.

cory to be fair I wasn't even thinking of Riven when I posted and hadn't been aware of any posts by her in this thread.