to be saddened by a three week old baby in full time childcare?

[lilystyles]

At a local toddler group last week there was a childminder who I'm friendly with, she had with her a new child, a baby of 3 weeks who's mother had gone back to work full-time in teh pub she and her husband own. I am not judging this woman, it's her choice but I couldn't help but feel sad at the situation.

We are talking about education, so it was relevant.

What we don't want is a culture where tehre is no freedom to express views others don't like. I hope most of us would die to preserve the right for others to write what we abhor. The internet gives people the chance to hear views of others. Some off line coccoon themselves in a cushy world of yes men where everyone is like themselves and supports them and doesn't say their bottom looks large in the dress. On the internet you get the chance to learn that plenty of women adore to work when their baby is 2 weeks old and regard it as sexist and very wrong to suggest that women rather than men are deserving of pity because they return to work quickly. We are lucky to have the chance to express those views on line.

It was not relevant, Xenia. It was petty. How is your Japanese, by the way?

So, your aim is prosletysing, I think that's apparent. However the wondrous virtues of the internet allow for other lessons, too.

On the internet you get the chance to learn that plenty of well-educated, feminist women believe patriarchal capitalism is flawed. Plenty of women and men believe that children benefit from direct care from a parent in their early years. Plenty of women and men who would like to see both sexes afforded the choice of a more equal balance between work and home life. Plenty of women and men who do not adore to work when their baby is 2 weeks old and, who, above all else, do not hold these beliefs because of an inability to achieve success in the "real world".

Some people simply don't see work as the real world. It's a question of values, not sexism.

I chose to go back to work after 4 months. I had a lovely time on maternity leave with my daughter and after that time, I was pleased to go back to work part time, though I returned to full time working again when I stopped breastfeeding. We could have afforded for me not to go back at all but that is not who I am. I would never dream of criticising a SAHM for the choices she makes, but I am sure that there are some people reading this thinking that they feel sorry for my child, who everyone meets and says that she is such a happy child. I don't think a SAHM mother is better than me or vice versa. I am pregnant again and plan to take the same amount of leave again (if everything goes well).

Women really are each others worst enemies, as we criticise and judge each other in a way that men wouldn't judge us or each other and quite frankly sets us all back, irrespective of the choices we make. I always find these threads incredibly sad.

This is a trehad started by a housewife to say she is sad about working women who are very content with their choices and indeed believe they do a better thing than housewives do. We simply replied, that was all. If housewives don't like heat they should get out of kitchens.

I don't mind people setting out their left wing or indeed any other views. It doesn't bother me. I don't get upset by it. It's not an issue just as presumably a housewife who has a different views from mine similarly isn't bothered by my views. However it's very important we express those views. Women weren't even allowed to go to university or own property or graduate in this country until a relatively short period ago. They had to give up work on marriage. They were paid less than men and legally allowed to be for the same work. These things are a tiny period ago in relative times and if we're not careful women will be back there because they choose to prove that they can only serve, can only clean up in care homes but could never start or own a chain or them etc etc.

I still really cannot understand how any one of any sex could actually enjoy 16 horus a day of course cleaning and looking after 3 under 5s. I just don't get it. I love doing that a bit, a few hours a day but all day every day... what can she possibly get out of it or is it like wasyhing the feet of the sick, a kind of servile pleasure type thing whilst you have grand interseting thoughts as you change nappy number 15

Sakura, an excellent post re capitalism. It seems to me that our social structures have not evolved to support the rapid pace of development, which is why women are still in such a bind. Plus the fact that we have no choice over being the childbearers.

Sakura, as an ex-English teacher I'm very impressed by the way you've expressed yourself.

Xenia, you are either taking the piss out of everyone on this thread or someone who has an excessively high opinion of her own viewpoints and absolutely no insight. If you really are old enough to have grown-up children and you really do have the successful career you've been claiming, why have you learned so little about life? Is this the 'better psychology' that you claim your working life gives you?

It's true though that we cannot ignore that women's independence from their fathers and husbands is a recent thing, and you only have to look to the relationships thread to see how easy it is being dependent to your husband to go wrong. Financial dependence for a long period of time can make the man the lord of the house, and the SAHM who has no income of her own one more of the children. I'm not saying this always happens, but it happens quite often.

Xenia, why do you insist in calling SAHMs housewives? Yes, things have moved on since the 50s.

I do a full-time job at home with the DCs during which time my DH goes out to work. When he comes home we share the other duties associated with family life. My 'job' may not have as much kudos as his (or yours), the pay is OK in that I have financial freedom with the family finances but the chances of returning to my old career at any kind of decent level are pretty much scuppered.

For many, the role of SAHM is one of sacrific for the greater good, well it is for me anyway.

Xenia, your 'greater good' and your 'sacrifice' are different than mine. As to the wrongs and rights of it all, happiness is the key measure I think. I could not be happy with outsourcing the care of my tiny babies but I would happily outsource the cleaning of my house. The terms SAHM and housewife are not synonymous.

I too thought Sakura's post was excellent and summed up the reality of 'choices' for mothers at present.

Also for some posters, just because you cannot understand the joys of being with toddlers all day long, doesn't mean others cannot be very happy doing exactly that. I fail to see the joy in many paid jobs. I love being home. I also love being around when they are sick, have school events etc without having to worry if I can be there or not. Many kids are disappointed when their parents don't/can't come. When i was working fulltime things just weren't the same.

Another point is that there are not that many well paying jobs. If every mother worked, many would be doing low paid crappy jobs and still be dependant.

To those who think mothers staying home is so wrong, is it wrong for a man to be a stay home Dad?

I went back to work the day after my Daughter was born (24hrs + 39 hr labour).

Did I want to ?

Did I fuck as like.

But I was s/employed and running a business that kept other women in employment.

So I went to work everday with my DD; because I had to.

I count myself lucky. I have a career that allows me to be both a Mother and a full time worker. My career allows substantial flexibility.

Running a pub does not.

A 3 week old in full time care is sad. I imagine that the Mother is sadder.

Xenia- why did you feel the need to have children- was your career not fulfilling enough??

sm, would you ask that of a man? Would you ask your husbands why did you feel the need to have children if you also work? I love having children and like most men and women I work too. That doesn't mean we don't bring them up.

Fathers who outsource care to their wives are dumping their children into childcare, using the language housewives use (and why is that term a problem - it describes the job and if I don't want silly acronyms give me something as short to write - one word and I'll use it). You don't berate your husbands for daring to have children but not being with the children 24/7. Just because they have a penis doesn't mean they aren't are "wrong" as a working woman or do you think you need a blood tie to care for children properly and be a woman?

On the question of greater good - if people do think it's better to have a mother not a father at home or better a mother than a granny or child minder or nanny or sibling, then why should it always be muggins women who are the sacrificial lambs ruining their careers and lives? Why not the men? Women's economic dependence on men is the root of so many of their problems.

I am wondering if the woman's name is on the pub and if she gets wages.

I am also coming from family with pubs, clubs and restaurants where women went to work in order 'to keep an eye on dh' . And Dh beat them or left them peniless and in debts. You can be a silly SAHM and you can be a silly working mum. Thats why i am trying to teach my dds confidence and self respect.

We know nothing about this woman and why she is in the pub. Just because she went to work after 3 weeks doesn't mean she is an indepedent feminist.

I wouldn't ask it of a man in particular, and I wouldn't question the woman in a family that had a stay at home dad either. But I would question any family where neither parent is interested in caring for the children.

I have questioned my friend- baby has gone to nursery from 7.30am until 6pm every day.

scruffymuff you sound like a busybody to me, and a particularly hairy one too.

If people feel something is right or wrong I don't think there's ap roblem in interfering. The friend might well retort do you know how much you are disadvanting your child by being home with it. It is only by discussing issues ilke this that people can see why some people hold other views (and indeed why some of us are right).

Most worknig parents in the UK do caer for their children. If you add up the hours of care I've put in with 5 children over now 26 years it will be more than any jonny come lately housewife on here.

wow Xenia you sure are bitter...you use the word 'housewife' with such contempt.

I can't even begin to understand the mindset of a mother that puts her newborn in full time day care.

couldn't agree more sakura.

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That was my worry, when people said she was working in a pub. That's what I meant when I said there should be some social policies in place to protect post-partum mothers.

Xenia going off to earn her thousands, in her name to invest as she likes, is completely different to a woman possibly being exploited by her family, or worse, her husband's family.

There needs to be some recognition for the enormous feat of giving birth, there needs to be financial and practical provisions in place so that no mother need be forced to leave her newborn unless she wants to.

Maybe the mum had no choice which in itself is sad as everyone should have a choice...

IMO I would do anything to make sure I could be SAHM I did not have children to pay others to take care (good) of them. I had them to look after them. I can see why some mothers have to though!

I actually used to enjoy being a SAHM, I didn't mind the cleaning, looking after baby and making OH tea after he got in from work :) All though that may make feminists turn in their graves! Just my 2 cents worth.

Oh and picking up on peoples grammer on an internet forum...?
Low Blow.

was "grammer" a joke?

Anyway, how can housewives not begin to understand a woman who goes back to work quickly but are very happy to enable their husbands to engage in such a moral wrong?

The reality today is that far more Women are given far more opportunities that our fore-bearers.

In my lifetime (i'm approaching 50 yrs old); Women were forced to give up work when they got married, or they got pregnant.

We've come so far; and made immense strides; unfortunately Women have not evolved as fast.

Still we differentiate and bash Women that stay at home to look after their children. Other Women bash them for doing it; whilst they go out to work. If a Woman is a high achiever/high earner; she's bashed again.

As Women we really do not do ourselves any favours. Whilst legislation, voting rights, SMP, et al can legislate; they haven't got round the "Big Issue".

Women bitch. And Gossip. And Argue/Bitch constantly.

If there was a bit of sense; we'd change the World for the better. Every day, every step, every action.

I don't think women bitch and gossip and argue constantly. AT ALL

Yes No. Lol

I don't have a problem with it Xenia, I just think SOME mothers think they have to spend 24/7 with their children!

I however would go insane if that was me!

Neither do I Nancy. I don't even think women bash each other as much as everyone keeps saying they do. That's an outdated male stereotype of women. I worked in a pub. Gossips? Men are the worst and bitchiest gossips I've ever come accross.

Anyhow, back to the subject

THis thread is about social problems that women face i.e there is no choice

Vulnerable SAHM or financially stable WOHM.
As I say, it's not much of a choice, is it. We live under a system that doesn't give women choices. Leaving your child is an impossible choice for many. BEcoming financially dependant on a man or the state is yet another impossible choice