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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think we shouldn't be sending people back to Zimbabwe

117 replies

wonderstuff · 06/10/2010 13:52

The Gamu thing was on the news - surely it isn't safe to send people to Zimbabwe while Mugabe is still there? Seems very unfair.

They said she arrived 8 years ago (Gamu) so she would have only been 10 at the time, I feel so sorry for her. Also seems that her mother found out her application to extend her visa was turned down via the media which seems harsh.

OP posts:
lottiejenkins · 06/10/2010 13:58

Apparently her mother has been claiming benefits that she wasnt supposed to be claiming, thats what i read earlier anyway!

wonderstuff · 06/10/2010 14:04

Still not fair on her kids is it? Zimbabwe is in such a mess, Mugabe is soo awful, just doesn't seem right.

OP posts:
foxinsocks · 06/10/2010 14:09

unless there is a clear reason why they need asylum, then they have to comply with the normal visa application process like everyone else

if corrupt/evil politicians could be used as a reason, we'd have a far larger queue outside our borders!

Filibear · 06/10/2010 14:23

This reply has been deleted

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mayorquimby · 06/10/2010 14:27

What's the alternative? allow all illegals to stay?

PinkieMinx · 06/10/2010 14:29

There are many countries with problems - we cannot accommodate everyone. As a child of a refugee I have every sympathy for those in need BUT not everyone's need to be here IS genuine.

BessieBoots · 06/10/2010 14:29

YANBU.

JaneS · 06/10/2010 14:46

Pinkie - it's not even about genuine need, really, is it? DH could argue he 'needs' to stay out of Russia because if he goes home he'll get drafted into the army and Moscow is a nasty, dangerous, corrupt place. But, though these things are unfortunate, they're hardly reason to get asylum! Where do we draw the line? I can understand someone very genuinely believing their life would be much harder and more dangerous in Zimbabwe than here, sadly.

I'm saying it clumsily, but what I mean is, we should be really careful about using the word 'genuine'. Lots of people are quite honest about the danger they face at home, but it isn't always enough of a reason to give them leave to stay here. They shouldn't be mixed up with those others who cynically try to play the system in full knowledge that they're cheating.

wonderstuff · 06/10/2010 16:09

I know we can't have an open door policy, but it just seems so harsh that a girl who has made her life here, who probably only has vague memories of Zimbabwe is to be forced to return to almost certain poverty and hardship - we as British citizens are so very lucky to have been born in a politically stable, rich country. Life is unfair I guess, is so sad.

OP posts:
MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 16:11

I hope she's not an MDC supporter - they're still frequently beaten up because they dare to support the opposition

Casserole · 06/10/2010 16:14

I don't believe for one second her mother really did find out via the news; I know that's what's being reported but I think it's bllcks.

The thing is that her mother was granted a visa for the UK whilst studying ONLY. Not refugee status. So I presume that the mother has always been completely open with Gamu and any other children about the fact that they are here fixed term, enjoy the England experience, get everything out of it, but we're not living here forever, etc and making sure her family know that. Just as I would expect someone from the UK living and working/studying abroad on a fixed term visa to do that for their children.

If she hasn't been doing that for her children, then I think you're getting angry at the wrong person.

JaneS · 06/10/2010 16:21

Of course it's hard for a child in this situation. DH has been at school here since he was 7, but there is no way he'd be granted asylum and he's been informed he may deported when his leave to remain ends in January. It feels horribly harsh, but there is a difference between someone who needs asylum because if they returned home they would be singled out and given horrific treatment in their country, and someone who is simply returning to a country which is not as good a place to live as Britain.

MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 16:26

LRD - she could still be given horrific treatment in Zimbabwe

\link{http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_details.asp?ActionID=364\here}

Mummalish · 06/10/2010 16:28

What confuses me is how she could claim benefits if she was not entitled to them?

Surely when you apply for benefits you have to provide your passport etc, and I know many visa's stipulate on them that you can't claim public funds, so not quite sure how she got the benefits in the first place.

Remember that Big Brother contestant a few years back? Makosi? Well she was supposedly being deported back to Zimbabwe too, but it didn't happen in the end, so am pretty certain Gamu and her family will find a way to stay here.

comtessa · 06/10/2010 16:29

Refugee Convention, which is the statute under which a person can claim asylum who: "... owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.."

So, claiming asylum comes down to whether someone has a well-founded fear, i.e. good reasons to back up why they are afraid.
Current caselaw (RN Zimbabwe) confirms that Zimbabweans who have lived in the UK for a significant length of time can be viewed as being at an enhanced risk if they were to return to Zimbabwe, due to the strong body of support for the Movement for Democratic Change in the UK. So, there is likely to be a risk to them, but it all depends on the individuals concerned in terms of political involvement, family political allegiances in Zimbabwe, tribe (to an extent - Ndebele people suffered dreadfully under Mugabe in the 1980s).

Incidentally, the Home Office formerly had a policy whereby if a child had lived in the UK for seven years, that would be a strong factor in considering granting leave. However it was scrapped several years ago.

In short, whether or not this particular family have a case to stay or not comes down to their individual history and experience. It's not helpful to launch into the "illegal immigrants" rhetoric. These are people who were formerly legal. Now that leave has come to an end. If they stay with no status, they are overstayers. If they claim asylum, they are asylum seekers with temporary admission. They did not enter illegally nor, it seems on the face of it, attempt to deceive in order to extend leave.

comtessa · 06/10/2010 16:32

Just out of interest LittleRedDragon, how long has your DH been in the UK in total?

You may have sought advice on this already, but there is the long residence rule he may benefit from, and alternatively spouse visa or Article 8 (right to a private and family life).

comtessa · 06/10/2010 16:33

Mummalish with certain types of leave you are permitted to work or claim benefits.

comtessa · 06/10/2010 16:36

PS Mummalish The Home Office had, for some time, suspended removals to Zimbabwe.

MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 16:40

word got out to ZANU "war veterans" (the term used loosely as actually most them weren't even born when Zimbabwe gained independence) that my exFIL (a ZANU support for his whole life - much to the dismay of the rest of the family) had family living in the UK - they assumed MDC affiliations and he was beaten up very badly about 2yrs ago. A retired man in his 60's. who is actually a ZANU supporter!!!

This sort of thing still happens now.

DanceInTheDark · 06/10/2010 16:42

Her mother was here on a visa to study, she hadn't been granted asylum. The children were named on her visa - not here in their own right if that makes sense?

comtessa · 06/10/2010 16:44

I was explaining asylum as it had been brought up earlier. What's your query Dance? (Apologies, brain melting in later stages of pregnancy)

DanceInTheDark · 06/10/2010 16:46

No query just pointing out that she hadn't been granted asylum and the visa had an expiry date.

Actually i don't know why i am contributing, i have nothing constructive to say !!

xkittyx · 06/10/2010 16:47

I believe she was claiming Working Tax Credits and CB (rather than lying and saying she was unemployed or anything) which is what a UK citizen would be entitled to - clearly as single mother with children her income couldn't have been that big. I wonder if she realised that this was a violation of her visa terms? Seems odd that she would have happily courted national publicity if so.

MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 16:50

skitty - if it was a violation of her visa terms she wouldn't have been given them in the first place surely

comtessa · 06/10/2010 16:52

As I've said, with certain types of visas you are entitle to claim certain benefits.