to think we shouldn't be sending people back to Zimbabwe

[wonderstuff]

The Gamu thing was on the news - surely it isn't safe to send people to Zimbabwe while Mugabe is still there? Seems very unfair.

They said she arrived 8 years ago (Gamu) so she would have only been 10 at the time, I feel so sorry for her. Also seems that her mother found out her application to extend her visa was turned down via the media which seems harsh.

Ok, now I've read more. Gamu's mother was here under a scheme exclusive to Scotland that is not a means to remain permanently in the UK.

It's very clear no recourse to public funds and a very quick search will tell you WTC is a public fund.

I'm very, very, very strongly against making exceptions for people like this, tbh, because of their actions they are the reason why all immigrants are tarred with the same brush and why it's now becoming extremely hard for non-EU people to come into and stay in the country, despite the vast majority of them abiding by the rules and not claiming any benefit at all whatsoever.

Sorry, but, these benefits are really going to come under the axe for all of us, and cases like this really don't help.

All my visas were actually stamps. I believe now they are some sort of hallogram thingie that covers an entire page in the passport. But even then, there was this huge 'No recourse to public funds' on the stamps (they're in an old, now expired and cancelled passport, admittedly, as the first one's nearly 10 years old).

expat, I'm trying to show how someone might find the system really difficult to cope with, with the best of intentions. I do think it is confusing and tough on people - in fact I think we should be ashamed of how badly we treat people who're trying to sort out visas/ immigration rules.

When DH has asked for clarification from the Home Office, he's invariably been treated as if he must be trying to cheat the system and any decent person would already know the answer to his question. I have no idea what the situation was like in this case, of course. And I agree exceptions must not be made. But the system needs to be changed.

If you look at the list of 'public funds', you have to know (for example), what counts as 'housing benefit'. It's taken me ages to work out that my council tax exemption doesn't count as that, because prior to me going into the council's office, I'd not heard the term. And that's fine, I can spend months chasing this stuff up, talking to other people who're equally unsure, and phoning for clarification that usually turns out to be no clarification at all. But I can and I do understand someone making a mistake somewhere along the line.

This visa system here is actually far, far easier than others I've dealt with. France - the paperwork and bureaucracy was truly a nightmare.

Ever try to get someone to the USA?

Honestly, I don't see how someone can make a mistake like this over and over again.

Again, type in 'What is housing benefit' and it's abundantly clear from the first two entries what it is.

I had no clue what it was, being foreign. The onus was on me to find out or I really have no business here.

Hence, why they put the Life in the UK test in. If you have that little grasp of English, you honestly should not be here.

When I moved to France, I was expected to learn and speak French on my own and find out what resources were there for that, not expect everything translated for me, including the visa documents I had to use.

My Scottish husband is also quite learning disabled. He really was unable to help as he has serious literacy problems.

So I had to do it on my own.

I don't understand, either, how Gamu is on a student visa now without having had to go back and apply from Zim in the first place AND how she was able to demonstrate the financial backing that's required for the student visa seeing as her mother claims tax credits to top up her income.

I think seeing as none of us really know what's going on in this case (as is evident), it's too early to judge. I do hate it that there seems to be such a 'guilty until proved innocent' culture around both benefits and immigration.

I don't doubt other places have tougher visa systems - but so what? Ours is still absolutely shite, and we should be ashamed.

For what it's worth, I know someone who's studying for (and has been struggling with) the Life in the UK test. She is fluent, and a university lecturer. DH doesn't struggle with English either. You're just assuming that because you managed (several years ago when the system was easier, incidentally), that everyone should. I do see that you're right and it is possible to find all the information, but I still have a lot of sympathy with someone who's struggled with it.

I have had to take that test, btw. I put off naturalising until it came into force. So I'm not assuming anything. I had to study for it. I was working at university at the time and all the British academics came in and looked at the questions and admitted they'd fail the exam themselves.

So it's a struggle? It always is anywhere you're somewhere new. I lived in France for two years and the first 6 months I was there I had a splitting headache every evening. It was before the internet, too, so there was no Googling, emailing or FA. And I was stuck out in the sticks with no one speaking English or Spanish. It sucked.

I took the exam with several who had English as a second language and passed. The two who didn't didn't have a very good grasp of English.

I've had to claim HB and tax credits and get a British passport and yes, some of the people were really rude and nasty. I actually filed a formal complaint against this dickhead in the HO in Belfast after my daughter's application was rejected and he was so rude when I rang for clarification.

But that happens everywhere. I've gotten treated like crap in department stores, restaurants, hospitals, etc.

It's not exclusive to visas and benefits.

It's getting harder and harder for non-EU poeple to immigrate here, and cases like this really don't help.

I guess we're just looking at it from different perspectives. I'm quite sure it's bad everywhere and people are unpleasant everywhere, but to me, that doesn't excuse it or even seem especially relevant.

I do agree that cases like this are damaging, but also perhaps an opportunity to look at the system again and make it better and less complicated. If we want to exclude people who aren't highly literate, very good at filling in forms and very assertive, that's fine - but we should do it openly, not like this.

Cases like this are also an opportunity to make people aware that the visa requirements are quite strict and difficult - if more people knew that, perhaps there would be less unwarranted concern about immigration?

Totally agree with expat. If a person wants to immigrate to another country whether to study, work, live, marry, whatever, surely the onus is on that person to make sure they know what they are getting into? They have to be accountable and responsible for themselves and not plead ignorance as a means of evading the rules. The system needs to be dumbed down in a way. Its too complicated. The rules and requirements should be more idiot proof for want of a better word. Many potential immigrants don't speak English but is it really up to the receiving country to translate everything for them? Like expat said, if you go to a foreign country then learn the language so you know what you're doing. I did it in France and am going through it all again in Holland. ABSOLUTELY no government documents whether tax or immigration or banking or health insurance are in English. So I have to hope my pigeon Dutch will get me through. I don't expect Holland to translate everything for me. I chose to live here so I abide by their rules. I think the same should be happening in England. There are advice services in many languages available to help with immigration matters and so you can't claim ignorance. The information is out there and even if the system is complicated you can get help with it.

I don't know, in my mind its quite black and white. The rules are quite clear and Gamu's mother broke them. She could put in an assylim claim now maybe? Given the risks she and her children face? But I think she does need some kind of consequence for her actions otherwise it means the rules are worthless and everyone can argue a personal case for them not applying.

The rules are not clear. The visa system is not clear. It has very little to do with fluency in English. A lot of people would love to pretend that if immigrants and would-be immigrants struggle with the system, that is proof they're just not educated or integrated enough.

My DH has lived here since he was a small child. He is bilingual. He has an Oxford degree; his English vocabulary and analytical skills are excellent. Yet this is no protection. He still finds (like Abs' husband, who as an American no doubt understands English), that he can't follow the requirements of the Home Office.

It is not on to try to cheat, or pretend ignorance. But it is also not on to pretend that the system is absolutely clear-cut, simple and honourable, because it is not.

Most visas state no recourse to public funds. This is the rule I am talking about. This is clear. The rest of the system is hellishly complex yes. But when you get granted a specific visa and it states no recourse to public funds then there is no way you can justify claining benefits! You cannot plead ignorance as the onus is on you not the system to abide by the rules. Your case little red dragon is not the same as Gamu's mother. Going on the (alleged) facts in various media sources she was on a fixed term non immigrant visa with no recourse to public funds. She cannot stay after the visa expires and she should not have claimed tax credits. Its horrific to think she and her children might be sent back and their lives at risk. But she applied for the visa and has to stick to its terms and conditions.

I had 4 years dealing with the US immigration authorities and yes its complicated and frustrating and unfair and longwinded and really ithe biggest farce I have ever seen. But it was still MY responsibility to be within the law at all times and I couldn't argue otherwise even if I wanted to. I guess my point is no matter how screwed up the system might be it is still Gamu's mother who made choices and will be held responsible for them.

If she is here on Fresh Talent, she's screwed anyhow because it's no longer extant and she'll need to go back to Zim and re-apply for a Tier 1 visa, anyhow, which she won't qualify for.

Fresh Talent was never meant as a pathway to permanent residency, that's why the Scottish government was allowed to get away with it in the first place without Westminster scuppering it entirely, which they ultimately did.

Also, her chidren are dependents. When they reach adult age, they'd need to apply for/qualify for a visa in their own right no matter what because she's not on a visa that leads to permanent residency.

The US system, ugggh, wrinkly.

Despite being married for so long and our children and myself being US nationals, of course, DH would need to pay for a medical and any vaccines he doesn't have that are on the US schedule, all the fees, travel to London for the interview, etc etc.

My father would have to loan us thousands of dollars because, well, NO RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS.

That's how it goes.

Gamu's family are not asylum seekers and never were.

They are economic migrants at a time when this is being very seriously looked at, particularly for non-EU nationals since come 2012 we will need to be more open to Romania and Bulgaria.

As I said above - in my experience of advising people (thought brief) on immigration law, the law changes basically weekly. It's very difficult for even people practicing immigration law to keep up to date with all the developments (and that's their full time job), so imagine what it's like if it's not your full time job?

Also, at the moment the UK is getting much stricter about requirements, and much more difficult. For e.g. a friend applied to get a highly skilled migrant visa extended so he can stay in the UK to work. He managed to get it - he got 76 points (I think?) which was enough for him to stay, as the min. required was 75. About a month later, a friend of his - same qualifications (PhD in engineering), same work background etc. etc. did not get it, as in the interim they had raised the number of points required to 80, and he didn't make it.

Expa, I spent a lot on lawyers and not one of them could give me a straight answer about anything. I just submitted everything on the list and hoped for the best. Immigration is not meant to be easy and is not meant to be freely available for all. I was gutted when I was given 30 days to leave when my visa was not renewed, and made to feel LUCKY they gave me 30 days and not a ticket on the next plane! So in a way I don't have any sympathy as I played by the book and it still didn't pan out the way I wanted. Why should anyone have the rules bent for them?

One of her issues (Gamu's mother) is that her visa expired and it's unclear now what status she is in, because if she did in fact extend her stay in Scotland on the Fresh Talent Scheme, she will now need to apply for another type of visa.

The other isssue is that she claimed benefits whilst on a visa that stipulated no recourse to public funds.

Now that part is, IMO, clear because a very quick 'What are public funds' search on Google brings up a list straight from UKBA, a bullet-pointed list, that includes Working Tax and Child Tax Credits. No matter what some bureaucrat may have said, it's in black and white from the horse's mouth as a second hit.

Out of interest, I did the HSMP points calculator thing, and was only allowed into the UK when I lied about how much I had in savings (you're meant to have £2,700; I have £0). Hm. When I did the Aus one, there was no freaking way they were letting me in.

Don't you people know my Granny was Australian!!!!

[bitter]

Oh AND [even more bitter, but this time towards the UK Border Agency], I couldn't say that I grew up in a majority English speaking country as South Africa wasn't on the list.

I can kind of see where they're coming from on that one, but considering I am:

• a native english speaker
• won prizes at school for my knowledge of grammar and spelling sadly lost
• everyone in my family are native speakers

I'm a bit miffed. Might write to them and ask "could you please add a question - did you ever win any English prizes?"

In the USA once your visa expires you are out of status and its very hard to do anything to get back into status. Immigration can/do deport you if you are discovered. The trouble is there are limited resources to find all the people and so there are hundreds of thousands of now illegal immigrants and not enough officials to deal with them all. Doesn't mean it's right that they stay though. So if Gamu's mother and her siblings have stayed beyond the time limit on their visa and have now been discovered, should the authorities say "oh its ok, we'll make an exception for you?" just because of their personal circumstances? I don't know what the right to appeal is like in the UK. You can try and appeal deportation in the USA but 99% of the time they pretty much laugh at you and hand you a plane ticket from what 3 different lawyers told me. Letting your visa expire is stupid, really, in their view, as there is no excuse for it. I applied well in time for my renewal and as they didn't renew it, to avoid going out of status I left. I had to tie off all the loose ends of my life in less than a month. It was the most awful month of my life pretty much. I got no sympathy from immigration, and as devastated as I was, they were just doing their job. I had originally had a non immigrant visa and knew my time would be up at some point, same as Gamu's mother must have done. I had no rights to just stay because I wanted to, so why should she? Her case is of course more serious as she and her family face potential violence back in Zim but if they're not eligible for a visa (assylum or otherwise) what can the UK officials do?

Regardless of the benefits thing, she's going to need another type of visa to stay here, most likely a Tier 1, for which she'll need 100 points now.

It's possible she can switch to asylum seeker, but then she won't be able to work.

At any rate, no more tax credits.

wrinkly, it's exactly the same. That's the point!

DH and I found it really hard to work out exactly what counted as 'public funds' and what did not, including having a row with the council who thought an exemption from council tax counted as public funds and therefore wanted to refuse us it. I don't know - and neither do you - what 'benefits' Gamu's mum was claiming.

Abs, it is annoying. Especially since I find that whenever you question the Border Agency, the attitude is that it's your fault, you're trying to cheat and/or you're not sufficiently fluent in English, so you should expect it to be hard.

And don't get me started on the stupidity of how much money you have to demonstrate you have, and how you do it.

The benefits were tax credits. That's even been reported by the BBC.

As to her visa, some say it was an application to extend after being on Fresh Talent that was turned down, the BBC is not saying what it was.

YANBU.

Although I would like to send the skunk smoking, disabled car parking space stealing chavs I saw the other day over to Zimababwe.

I propose some kind of human 'swopsies'.

I hate to say this, but my English is better than that of a lot of English people netmums

Thanks expat. Sorry, I hadn't seen that, I'd read further up the thread that we didn't yet know what the situation was, so I apologize.

I still say, I understand how she could have done it by mistake.