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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think we shouldn't be sending people back to Zimbabwe

117 replies

wonderstuff · 06/10/2010 13:52

The Gamu thing was on the news - surely it isn't safe to send people to Zimbabwe while Mugabe is still there? Seems very unfair.

They said she arrived 8 years ago (Gamu) so she would have only been 10 at the time, I feel so sorry for her. Also seems that her mother found out her application to extend her visa was turned down via the media which seems harsh.

OP posts:
KiwiKat · 07/10/2010 10:14

It would send out some very odd messages if Gamu's family was to be granted leniency due to her recent celebrity status - just wrong, wrong, wrong. A bit like Pete Dougherty never going to jail ...

That said, Gamu has a fantastic voice, and should have got through, if the visa thing wasn't an issue. I'd be more than happy to see that ghastly and talentless Katie Waisell shipped off in her stead.

ginnybag · 07/10/2010 10:14

Sorry, folks - A student visa will get you an NI number. As a student you have the right to work for a limited amount of time in term time and full time in the holidays.

Also, usually, the right to access the NHS.

If you are working and using the NHS, the government (rightly!) want to take Tax and NI from you, so you are paying your own way for the resources you are using and so they don't lose the rvenue from that job. Hence, NI number.

The fault is double, here - The woman for claiming when she shouldn't have and the DWP for not conducting a right to claim check.

Oh, and it's not an automatic twenty hours per week if you're a student either - it depends upon the level of qualification you're taking - I've had Customs ring the company I work for to ask about that!!

Chinghehuang · 07/10/2010 10:15

Do you think Gamu's mother will be prosecuted if she is allowed to stay here for claiming benefits she was not entitled to or will they sack the clerk who administered her benefit claim forms, there has to be blame somewhere?
I know the state comes down pretty hard on most people who claim money they are not entitled to as it is an offence.
Will be interesting to see the outcome of this family's dilemma, but I have to agree with Casserole view points, they were here on a student visa and therefore should return when it expires.

coraltoes · 07/10/2010 10:20

The key issue here is the difference between claiming asylum or having a visa. The former = fleeing from something, persecution, attack, war...whatever. The latter does not suggest this at all, and flouting the rules of a foreign student visa undermines the system. It was not suggested Gamu's family lived in danger, but in poverty...two very different things. Sadly a lot of people in the UK and many many other countries live in poverty, we cannot help every single one. By providing a national education system which is open to these people is already a good helping hand, and hopefully she can build a future for her family with the qualification she gained here.

Chinghehuang · 07/10/2010 10:32

I think everything will be okay for Gamu and her family they have a family lawyer Frances Farrell who is hoping that the situation can be resolved. I guess then her mother will repay all the money she falsely claimed, or better still if Gamu wins the X-Factor she can use her prize money Smile

comtessa · 07/10/2010 11:23

LittleRedDragon, I've just sent you a private message.

JaneS · 08/10/2010 09:13

Comtessa, just seen it. Thanks, that was so kind of you to take the trouble to write out. I expect we'll be fine but it's nervy, and DH is getting quite stressed now. We're doing the application in person soon so fingers crossed it's ok.

I think some people on this thread who're finding it so easy to judge should try and see how hard it is to satisfy the Home Office with the right paperwork. DH and I find it near-impossible to work out what the system wants (because they shift the goalposts all the bloody time), and we are both educated people who're fluent in English and have spent hours on the phone checking the 'advice'. God knows what it's like if you're not.

I really shouldn't post on these threads.

comtessa · 08/10/2010 09:29

You're welcome LittleRed, keeps my brain cells ticking over. If you want to PM me with any questions I'd be happy to help. Or recommend organisation to assist you. I'm based in the East Midlands but do know of several around the country by reputation thanks to the organisation I formerly worked for.

JaneS · 08/10/2010 09:32

Thanks very much. With luck, it'll go alright, but if not, I will take you up on that offer! Smile

lenak · 08/10/2010 09:41

LittleRedDragon - if your DH has been in the country for 14 years, can he not get Indefinite Leave to Remain under the Long residency rules

JaneS · 08/10/2010 10:04

No, he can't.

mamatomany · 08/10/2010 10:13

I worked illegally for a few years abroad, i'm sure millions do it but i wouldn't have the bloody cheek to draw attention to myself by going on TV or claiming benefits that really wasn't very smart at all was it.
Having said that they seem like a decent family perhaps we could start an exchange program ?

JaneS · 08/10/2010 10:19

Did she even know she it was illegal though?

I can totally understand her mother not realizing that, let alone her.

To give you an example: when DH and I rented our current flat, we had enough money to pay the rent but not enough to qualify for their guarantor rules. The lettings agent looked at DH's salary and my grant and told us to check if we were eligible for benefits of some kind.

Now, we know we're not, and I'm sure the council would have told us so very soon, but it can be very confusing when someone who appears to know what they're talking about, who appears to be in a position of authority, is telling you that you're eligible to claim something!

mamatomany · 08/10/2010 10:25

An estate agent in authority blimey that's got to be the first time anyone has said that.
Ignorance is never a defense.

JaneS · 08/10/2010 10:30

'Ignorance is never a defense [sic]' has got to be one of my favourite MN replies. Judging by the 'blimey' you're not American.

I think it's very easy to come from a fortunate position and judge people, but much harder if you are trying to find your way through a difficult system (and our immigration system is really complicated). Why not expect a professional with responsibility for housing to know about housing benefit? Why not expect that if you apply for benefits, someone will tell you whether or not you're allowed them?

Casserole · 08/10/2010 10:31

Littlered I keep thinking about you and your DH. I do sincerely hope everything works out for you both.

JaneS · 08/10/2010 10:34

Thanks, that's so kind. We'll know soon, then it'll only be another couple of years and he can get citizenship, and we'll both breathe a big sigh of relief! Grin

AbsofCroissant · 08/10/2010 10:49

Well, for a start, nobody apart from the visa officials and Gamu's mother are aware of what she did/didn't claim and what she was/wasn't entitled to.

Immigration laws are a pain in the arse and constantly change. My ex has been through years of dealing with the home office. He's a US citizen, and has really struggled with them.

Here are just a few snippets from the fabulous time he's had with them. They rejected his visa application, saying that he had not supplied all the appropriate documents. He then got them to send a copy of every document they had to his lawyer. His lawyer then went through the bundle with them on a call and asked exactly what documents were missing - none were actually missing. They just weren't looking properly. The Home Office then lost his passport for six months. Then, they refused again, so it went to trial in Glasgow. The judge presiding was on secondment from California (not exactly clear why - I didn't know they had such things but anyway) - fortunately. The hearing was about whether or not ex, who has been resident in the UK for about 10 years, settled, with friends and family here - his whole life could stay. No one from the Home Office even bothered to turn up to the hearing. Unsurprisingly, the judge decided in ex's favour.

So, a lot of mistakes are made by the Home Office and immigration, and individuals. When I was advising on immigration issues as a student (pro bono place), it was incredibly difficult, as the requirements do literally change week to week.

And as for whether or not her family are safe: if you have any connection to the UK you're viewed as an enemy by ZANU PF, and even though it no longer makes it to the news in the UK, crazy stuff is still going on. People being beaten up, thrown out of their homes, raped. It could happen to Gamu and her family.

JaneS · 08/10/2010 10:54

That sounds familiar, Abs! In fact someone told me the other day that the only way he managed to get his visa sorted in the end was to get his solicitor onto it full-time.

Which does rather make you wonder what people without solicitors do!

expatinscotland · 08/10/2010 10:55

I think it's unreasonable that this is national news.

What foxinsocks and mamatonomy said.

And yes, I came here as an immigrant myself.

I couldn't claim benefits the first year I was married to DH (this was a while back the rules have now changed). So we didn't.

That is very clear. Very very clear and the onus is on the visa holder to make it clear if it is not.

People who do this make it harder for everyone else.

AbsofCroissant · 08/10/2010 10:58

Get kicked out?

JaneS · 08/10/2010 11:01

expat, I wonder if perhaps the situation was clearer then?

I am not the world's best and brightest at filling in forms, but I've found it really hard to work out what we are and aren't entitled to. It took ages to find out from the council (for example), whether or not the student-house council tax exemption would be allowed or not.

Of course it shouldn't be possible to claim benefits on a visa, but some portion of the blame must go to the idiots who designed a system so complicated it is falling over, with minimal and often misleading 'advice' available, and which quite evidently lacks the capacity to make basic background checks..

expatinscotland · 08/10/2010 11:12

She was on what used to be the HSMP. 'No recourse to public funds'. That part is clear and really, if it isn't, it's a matter of asking the agency you apply to and getting confirmation from them in writing. That way, you cover your own arse.

The other issue is that, thanks to cases like Gamu's mum, the government is starting to get very tetchy about what it considers chain migration, in other words, the ability to bring your family with you as dependents of a visa holder.

Which is sad.

Guess it already goes on, though. In Ireland, student visa holders aren't allowed to bring their families with them. In the UK, they are, and their spouses can work FT, too.

That won't last.

JaneS · 08/10/2010 11:20

expat, honestly, it's not clear. We will get our council tax remitted in part - that's not 'recourse to public funds', but getting housing benefit would be. I see the difference, but it's not exactly blindingly obvious, especially if you've just wrestled with the Home Office and know how mind-bogglingly complex their system is.

expatinscotland · 08/10/2010 12:01

If it isn't clear, then you need to get it in writing, though, LittleRed.

I filled out HB apps when I was on ILR and even back then, the app has spaces for you to declare your nationality and then, if you were not British, you had to declare your immigration status. This was back in about 2003, too.

Also, I just typed 'What are public funds' into Google and this came up as the second entry, the second being a definition.

whatarepublicfunds

Straight from the UKBA.

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