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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think we shouldn't be sending people back to Zimbabwe

117 replies

wonderstuff · 06/10/2010 13:52

The Gamu thing was on the news - surely it isn't safe to send people to Zimbabwe while Mugabe is still there? Seems very unfair.

They said she arrived 8 years ago (Gamu) so she would have only been 10 at the time, I feel so sorry for her. Also seems that her mother found out her application to extend her visa was turned down via the media which seems harsh.

OP posts:
xkittyx · 06/10/2010 16:55

That's what I'm thinking although I'm no expert - the whole thing is just odd. Perhaps the departments don't cross check.

MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 16:57

well according to \link{http://www.howtobooks.co.uk/abroad/uk/student-visa.asp\here} (don't know how accurate it is - but was one of the first links when I googled)

you can't claim benefits if you're on a student visa

You can take part-time or holiday work, but you must not:

work for more than 20 hours per week during term time unless your placement is part of your studies and has been agreed with your education institution and leads to a degree or qualification awarded by a nationally recognised examining body
do business, be self-employed or provide services as a professional sportsperson or entertainer
work full-time in a permanent job.

JaneS · 06/10/2010 17:01

MaMo - I know she could be given horrible treatment in Zimbabwe. I am on her side, I just thing some of the arguments here are not the best.

Comtessa - he's been a student here for 14 years IIRC, and working for two years. We know we can tough it out for two years if he gets deported, but the point is, the law is very harsh on everyone.

Study visas, btw, are an odd case as you can get very long study visas (DH has been on them for most of his life!), but, they do not contribute to make you more eligible for any other kind of visa later, and the same, sadly, applies to her kids.

KiwiKat · 06/10/2010 17:07

This is completely by the by, but thought I'd share the tale:

my husband was friendly with a chap who had applied for refugee status in NZ (where we were living at the time) on the grounds that he would be tortured or killed if he returned to his home country. Soon after he received his residency, he celebrated by returning home to visit his mother.

Sometimes things aren't quite what you think they are!

Original poster
wonderstuff · 06/10/2010 17:10

We never hear the tales of people who were turned down for asylum and go on to be tortured or killed do we?

OP posts:
MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 17:40

exH and I left Zimbabwe in 2000 as it was just being to become apparent that it would be too dangerous for us to stay. We would never have returned their too live - but we did have a 3 week visit in 2006 - short trips are much safer than living.

StrictlyTory · 06/10/2010 17:45

IMO if you don't want to be deported you should at least have the decency to not steal from the state that has allowed you to stay...

If you don't want to be charged with arson you don't burn down a house, it's all common sense really.

MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 17:47

who stole from the state????

Hedgeblunder · 06/10/2010 17:47

Gamus mum is technically a skilled worker, therefore isn't entitled to any gov.assistance.

I don't know, I do have pretty limited sympathy for those that break immigration laws.

Gamu could stay if she applied independantly with no dependants listed in her application

JaneS · 06/10/2010 18:29

Did she intentionally break the law?

It is very easy to say something on a visa application that is wrong, by accident - it is an incredibly complicated set of rules, which change all the time.

MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 18:32

I don't know - apparently she claimed WTC and CTC - whether she thought that those were "benefits" who knows?

Although if she managed to claim those one has to wonder at the set-up that allows those who don't qualify for benefits to actually awarded them!!

agedknees · 06/10/2010 18:40

Maybe Gamu's mothers work colleagues where claiming WTC and CTC, so Gamu's mother thought everyone could claim it?

Agree with MaMoTTaT. Surely the departments who agreed these benefits should be looked into.

foxinsocks · 06/10/2010 21:17

The most extraordinary arguments on here! She 'could' get treated badly in zim said Lil I think, well then what's to stop the whole of zim applying for asylum here on that basis?

You know what is sad - is that it takes the bloody x-factor to humanise the face of people trying to get into this country. Suddenly people have sympathy with asylum seekers - not quite the daily mail headlines about those seeking asylum that we saw 6 months ago.

MaMoTTaT · 06/10/2010 22:51

but that "could" is a very high probability.

MDC supporters (and anyone who has lived in the UK/has family here is highly likely to be one - according to the ZANU militia/police (except my FIL) are still being beaten, torture, raped, killed. ESpeciallly women, who are the most vocal rights activitst - WOZA members (and anyone associated with them) are on both Amnesty and HRW's action lists.

Heracles · 07/10/2010 02:33

I'd send everyone who applies to be on X Factor to Burma.

That is all.

ccpccp · 07/10/2010 09:07

Gamu is not a UK citizen, and was here temporarily while her mother apparently used and abused the system.

Visa has expired, and theres been some dodgy benefits claiming going on, no matter how lawyers and hand-wringers try to paint it as accidental or a misunderstanding.

OUT!

MaMoTTaT · 07/10/2010 09:14

used and abused the system - working as a nurse? Bet the people she cared for didn't feel used and abused.

If she was claiming WTC and CTC - how the fuck did she get awarded it surely there must be a system in place (seen as though they need your NI number) to see who actually qualifies and who doesn't??

oh - and generally most people fly from Gatwick.

MaMoTTaT · 07/10/2010 09:14

oh and there are a lot of people working and living here - and yes some have had recourse to public funds (legally I hasten to add) who aren't UK citizens.

wrinklyraisin · 07/10/2010 09:21

I strongly believe if you apply for and are granted a Visa to do anything in another country then you have 3 legal obligations: abide by local/national/international laws, abide by all of the Visa conditions, and if you cannot/will not do either of these then GO HOME.

Gamu's mother was here on a Visa which expressly forbade receiving any benefits. She is a smart woman (skilled worker), she would have known this. She claimed tax benefits anyway. She brought three children here. She did not have adequate funds to support herself or her children, a requirement of the Visa. She broke the condition of said Visa and is now facing the consequences.

It's terribly sad, and not without risk, that she and her children have to return to Zimbabwe. But such is life. If you don't obey the rules then you face the consequences. Why should she get a reprieve? She got her children into this situation, through her own unwise decisions and actions. She made choices. On any Visa application it is the applicants responsibility to obey all the conditions of said Visa, it is not up to the granting country to babysit the person and make sure they obey everything.

MaMoTTaT · 07/10/2010 09:28

shame the Brist abroad can't abide by the same rules hey

Besides - this is about Gamu - the daughter, who is now legally an adult, she is also being told she has to go back to ZImbabwe with her mother and can't appeal for herself as an adult.

MaMoTTaT · 07/10/2010 09:30

But surely you DO have to question how someone that isn't legally allowed to claim any benefits managed to do so?

How many other people - even people with permnan ent leave to remain or UK citizens are also claiming benefits which they're not allowed to claim - but a simple check would show that they're not?

I'm not talking about the minority of cash in hand benefit fraudsters, I'm talking here about people who are working, paying tax -

ccpccp · 07/10/2010 09:33

Yes - she used and abused the system. She was on a student visa.

I'm sure the people she helped as a nurse were very grateful, but the local nurse who then couldnt find a job was probably less appreciative of her being here and working illegally.

If you are being shipped out in the cargo hold of a DC10, you go from LHR Wink

wrinklyraisin · 07/10/2010 09:41

There's sonething wrong with the system yes.

As a comarison though I was in the USA on.a particular visa. After a period of time I had to renew that visa and I could not meet the requirements at the time of renewal so I could not stay. I had a life, an apartment, 4 years of living there. That counted for nowt in the eyes of the immigration official. The USA is way tougher than the UK. They do check everything. Its possible to stay there under the radar and millions do. That doesn't make it ok though. Living in another country is a privilege not a right. If you get caught cheating the system then you should be held responsible surely? If we could all blame the system for something to avoid personal accountability then there would be anarchy.

Maybe the immigration authorities here need to do annual renewals? It would cost a lot but would mean checks could be made each year and if a visa holder was claiming benefits this would be flagged? I agree its an unfair situation but I also think personal accountability plays a role here. Gamu should have the right to apply for a visa in her own right, as an adult. But she should still have to meet the same requirements as anyone else.

SamJones · 07/10/2010 09:51

I'm pretty sure that you need to quote your NI number to be able to get those benefits - and I doubt a student visa would get you one of those.
It is however possible to get a fraudulent NI number to claim money that you are not entitled to.

I'm not saying any of Gamu's family have done this, just that it is possible.

(exH works in Immigration so really I should remember more of the rules but I am trying to blot him out!)

I don't blame Gamu's family for wanting to stay - why wouldn't you? But the rules are there to be followed. If the rules are wrong, we need to change them, not ignore them.

MaMoTTaT · 07/10/2010 10:10

actually you ARE allowed to work part time on a student visa. So if you are allowed to work - then you are allowed to have a NI number legally surely?

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