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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be surprised that so many people do not know their times tables

194 replies

moffat · 25/09/2010 13:19

I am on a Primary PGCE course and was very surprised in a Maths session when loads of students (ie trainee teachers) said that they didn't know all their times tables. Not being judgemental but I suppose with people using calculators/spreadsheets so much there is no need to memorise them all. Just wondered whether this was the norm.

OP posts:
MaMoTTaT · 25/09/2010 19:57

but how is it "mastering" the earliest arithmetic if they're not going to retain it (as many people don't), or they progress by finding ways which are easier for them to do their maths?

Does it really matter whether Mr Smith works out that 6 apples costing 5p each is 30p by multiplying, or by addition - so long as he can work it out??

muminthemiddle · 25/09/2010 20:02

I was taught the by rote and do remember all of them.

I find it helps me in shops etc working out the true cost of 3 for 2 and so on.

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 20:03

Yes, it does: because without it you can't do fractions, algebra etc etc see previous posts. Well you can, but it takes you a lot longer.

And don't forget most people do retain it, especially if they use it.

So a whole tranche of people working with numbers, shop people etc etc who now can't do two ice creams at 50p and a choc ice at one pound, so have to use a calculator while the queue builds up, would just know the right answer just like that.

Does it matter that the queue builds up? Does it matter that they could be easily cheated because of their lack of confidence? Does it matter that they can't work out how much paint they need without help, or how many metres of fencing to buy?

I don't know. Maybe it doesn't matter if we all faff about with a pencil and paper (how are you going to work out 7 x 12 by addition without props?) or goggle uselessly until someone comes along with a calculator to help us. I think it does though.

pointydog · 25/09/2010 20:10

I am not surprised that so many don't know their tables as they easily forgottne when not used.

I would expect student teachers to re-learn them pretty sharpish. They are v v useful, after all.

MaMoTTaT · 25/09/2010 20:11

well - as I said earlier - if I'm in doubt I whip out the mobile phone and use that.

But generally I'm either at home working how much paint I need (gawd I can't stand unorganised people who go to buy DIY stuff without knowing how much they need first!), or - as in the example above 3 or 2 offers I can do the addition pretty quickly

If shop assistants can't do 2 ices creams at 50p and a choc ice at one poune - then I think there's a LOT more wrong than them just not knowing their tables........

mummytime · 25/09/2010 20:12

I am good at maths, but I could never recite my times tables. I did better at random filling in number grids. And I think I have got better over the years as I use multiplication more so remember more of the facts, rather than as I did at school just working them out.
I was always very good at fractions btw.

However most kids are made to do lots of mental calculations, so are probably better at mental arithmetic than I was.

I passed the teaching numeracy tests first time, although numbers have always been the weakest part of maths for me. (There is a lot more to maths than arithmetic.)

naughtymummy · 25/09/2010 20:13

I havent read the whole thread, but I am paying Ds ( 6) £10 for each times table he knows, when I say know , I mean for example " Ds what is 6 divided by 3 ?. Or how many 4 s in 16 ? Rather than mindlessly reciting them. That is what I would call knowing your times tables. I will keep going until he doesn t want to do it . So far we have done 2s,5s and 10s. We are working on our 11s. I am shocked adults could n't do this.

MaMoTTaT · 25/09/2010 20:14

asidde from the fact that I know my 10 and 2 times tables so worked that sum out by doing 10x7 + 2x7 - I could add that up in a matter of seconds.

I learned a lot of the ways I do things now on my own as an adult.

I'm glad that my DS's are being taught there are usually several ways to solve any set problem - as it means that if DS1 continues to be like me and hopeless at remembering his tables by rote (DS2 is great at them by rote of the ones he'd learned so far) he'll not struggle in early adult hood like I did,

octopusinabox · 25/09/2010 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pointydog · 25/09/2010 20:16

£10?! Crikey.

forehead · 25/09/2010 20:17

My dd is six and knows all her tables.

QuizteamBleakley · 25/09/2010 20:20

Perhaps the most concerning element of this discussion is that there is a very real danger that children of today will be shite on the numbers round of Countdown... Grin I'm off to write to that Miliband chap

MaMoTTaT · 25/09/2010 20:21

point - what's £10???/ Confused

naughtymummy · 25/09/2010 20:23

Well he want s a nintendo DS. This way he can see himself getting closer to his goal. We do it in the car on the way to and from school (15 mins each way) he has got one a week so far, I reckon the later ones will take him longer , I get to pay for the Nintendo in installments.

Pogleswood · 25/09/2010 20:23

I don't know them - well,I know some,but not all.I was educated at a time when the emphasis wasn't on rote learning - no tables,no spellings.

From this disadvantage,I have managed Maths O level (Grade A),3 science A levels and a science based degree.I can work out how much paint I need etc though I'd need a calculator to be exact.And 7x12 is 70 + 14...

There are times when it would be useful,but tbh the biggest disadvantage I've found so fdar is that I can't easily help the DCs learn their tables.

southeastastra · 25/09/2010 20:23

my older son got them straight away, second one is hopeless, so am i

and calculators are part of modern life now anyway Wink

lenak · 25/09/2010 20:24

7 x 12 is a good example - I don't know from memory that 7 x 12 is 84.

However, I do know that 7 x 10 is 70 and 7 x 2 is 14 and can add them together in maybe a fraction of a second longer than it would take someone who had memorised it to say it off the top of their head.

I don't think either MaMo or I are saying that you don't have to know how to multiply or have some knowledge of some of the times tables - we're just saying you don't have to know 1 x 1 all the way through to 12 x 12 commited to memory in order to be able to handle basic mental arithmatic.

I think when people say they don't know their times tables they just mean that they haven't got them memorised - I would hope trainee teachers, would, however, have developed other ways of being able to cope with basic mental arithmatic.

FWIW I do think times tables should be taught via chanting - I just don't think it is the be all and end all - it needs to be taught alongside other methods.

pointydog · 25/09/2010 20:25

Telling a 6 yr old they get a tenner for learning a table just seems a bit crazy.

naughtymummy · 25/09/2010 20:32

But why ? He understands that he needs £120 for the DS, this way he learns to save up for what he wants , also that you have to work for your money. I cant see anything crazy about it .

MaMoTTaT · 25/09/2010 20:35

well lets just hope that's not one that struggles with his tables then and find's it a very long (I'm talking years) ahead of him.

I don't think they actually starting learning more than 2,5,10 until YR3....and it's only really this year that DS1 (10) has managed to be able to tell me the answer to most of the ones I fire at him (although I suspect he does it like me and adds it up rather than "knows" them - I can see his brain working Grin)

pointydog · 25/09/2010 20:36

I just view it differnetly. I would never give my kids money for learning something that I would just expect them to get on and learn.

naughtymummy · 25/09/2010 20:42

But it isn't like his reading ,spellings or work sheets. This is extra I dont expect him to do it, it is up to him. He loves maths. I don't expect him to get them all this year, I am sure that he will get his DS though , he gets pocket money and is happy to wash his Dads car for a couple of quid !

MaMoTTaT · 25/09/2010 20:45

no he probably won't get his DS - there'll probably something new and better out by the time he's saved up enough Wink

DS2 loves maths - he's in his top group at school (just gone into YR2) - he'll be 7 in November - I wouldn't expect him to know his tables (well he knows his 2's, 5's and 10's but that's it) for quite some time.

CloudsAway · 25/09/2010 20:51

I think not having them memorised can be what puts weaker children off maths later on. They're the ones that don't understand fractions and algebra as well as they should, or get it wrong because of their tables, or are too slow at it, etc., and they think they're bad at maths. So it's not that you need tables for daily life as an adult, necessarily, but they're very useful for secondary school maths, and for realising that you are capable of doing maths instead of thinking it's all too hard.

Understanding needs to come first, which is often via counting methods. But having them by memory is awfully useful too. You can memorise without chanting, though, and still have them instantly available. In fact, some people who learn by chanting STILL have to chant through the table to get to the one they want. Children need to practise them randomly/instantly, whether they use verbal or visual or kinaesthetic or other sorts of memory to do so.

I thikn it's useful to know how to do the chunking thing as well - the 10x7 and 2x7 to work out 12x7, because that's a very useful skill for doing any kind of 2 digit multiplication in your head. As long as the tables from 2-9 are learned (and 1 and 10, obviously, but that's more understanding than memory!), then you can figure out any of the others quite easily. Knowing the 12x isn't vital, although I do still find it useful as so much still comes in multiples of twelve (hours of the day, for example).

MaMoTTaT · 25/09/2010 21:02

"In fact, some people who learn by chanting STILL have to chant through the table to get to the one they want. "

right - so ermm, what's the difference between them chanting through to get to the one they want and me adding up quickly to get to the one I want Confused

I was good at fractions - and alegbra