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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to be surprised that so many people do not know their times tables

194 replies

moffat · 25/09/2010 13:19

I am on a Primary PGCE course and was very surprised in a Maths session when loads of students (ie trainee teachers) said that they didn't know all their times tables. Not being judgemental but I suppose with people using calculators/spreadsheets so much there is no need to memorise them all. Just wondered whether this was the norm.

OP posts:

BeenBeta · 25/09/2010 17:14

Actually it was 40 years ago.

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 17:21

i have to swear

fucking maths teaching in britain in the last twenty years, what a fucking waste of time

fuck it

sorry but its the only thing that makes me really, really irate

having said that it's a good idea to get probability and sequences in at primary

but fuck you need bloody good times tables for both those

BeenBeta · 25/09/2010 17:28

Oooh ... the battles I have had at DSs school over maths teaching. They just do not do enough maths and am convinced its because the teachers just dont feel confident or even like maths.

I found Dance on the National Curriculum the other day. Dance I ask you! Its the X Factorisation of teaching that causes this trend.

Grrrrh.

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 17:30

I agree but have found that they will listen to fathers with a lot more patience on this issue.

Basically, if you're a student teacher now you've probably had a shit maths education in a state school. In fact if you're thirty and went to state school you're quite likely to have had a shit maths education I think.

Gives me no hope at all.

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 17:32

BUT if you have you probably don't know it, because that's what was normal for you. So you see all these parents squawking about times tables and spelling and you think, god what a bunch of dinosaurs. Now about the dress up day next week...

BetsyBoop · 25/09/2010 17:34

YAsoNBU

I must admit that one (of many) reasons that we chose DD's school (she's just started Reception) is that during KS1 they learn times tables the old-fashioned way :) So many schools don't...

ASecretLemonadeDrinker · 25/09/2010 17:35

I don't know my tmes tables off by heart, I just work it out in my head. Some I can just say the answer, 7 and 8's I have to quickly do in my head. Meh

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 17:42

It's not meh. If you can't do times tables you find fractions and algebra and division a lot harder. It's more wearisome and off putting to progress in maths without times tables.

If you go wrong in a fraction and you don't know your times tables you don't know why. Is it the arithmetic? Is it the algorithm? Where did it go wrong?

If you know your times tables you don't have this problem, you don't have it with algebra, you can focus on the process not the sums. You don't even have to think about the sums.

It's not meh, and I feel sorry for the person who said they couldn't be arsed. They should be taught very very young when the concept of "couldn't be arsed" doesn't even feature. They can pick up on the understanding later.

BeenBeta · 25/09/2010 17:42

Appletrees - dont even get me started on dress up day!

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 17:43

spitspluttergrowlffsgrrrrr

PopCrackleSnap · 25/09/2010 17:47

Dyslexic children often find tables really hard to learn because of problems with sequencing and short term memory. I think back in the 'olden days' when they had to chant them, a lot of children really struggled. Probably they weren't identified as dyslexic in those days though. But I know people who found it all a nightmare, timed tests and public humiliation if they didn't get them, etc and just thought they were bad at maths. Even now it can be hard for dyslexics if teachers don't get how easy it is to mix up the words or get the order wrong or just not be able to get them to sink in even with lots of repetition. I think it's still really important to try to learn them though but teachers should appreciate how hard it is for some. I guess if the teachers don't know them themselves they might have more sympathy!! If not any better ideas.

ASecretLemonadeDrinker · 25/09/2010 17:50

I can do maths to a reasonable level - I just don't learn things by sitting and memorising i.e times tables. I just know most of them, 7 & 8's I have to think twice about, but if someone asks what is 7x8 I will think 40... 48...56...56. Just the way I do it. I suppose I could sit and learn it like a script, but my way works fine enough.

Niecie · 25/09/2010 17:54

I was talking to the deputy head of DS1's school yesterday who said that when she couldn't do a rapid recall of times tables. I didn't ask her if she can now but I was querying the fact that DS1 still couldn't do them (despite practice) and she said they are focusing on them now as they realise how vital it was that children did know them without thinking because they can't comfortably move onto higher level maths. So they have certificates for learning them and it is a big deal in their school. But it isn't just tables, it is the whole number bonds thing with addition and subtraction too. DS can't recall those much of the time either.

I didn't realise loads of adults couldn't do them. I knew DH was rubbish at mental maths (despite being an accountant) and can't do anything in his head but even he knows his tables. We both learnt them by rote at school with a weekly test. Sadly it seems to be the only way although DS2's HT reckons the maths DS games are a good way of making it fun.

inthesticks · 25/09/2010 18:01

I went to school in the olden days and we chanted our tables from day 1 in reception.
Everybody got it.
All children with all abilities came out of primary school knowing their tables.
Not least because there was no National Curriculum forcing teachers to "teach" fractions and algebra to children who couldn't even add up, which is what they have to do now.
In those days (I was in primary school in the 60s) you didn'thave to learn to run before you could sit up unaided.

BeenBeta · 25/09/2010 18:02

Niece - I was staggered by how many business people could not do basic maths until I started teaching a 'Maths for Business' course at a business school. These people were peole in world famous companies who had degrees from really top universities. They had spent their entire bsuienss career faking it. Their fear was palpable, a few were on the verge of tears at beingexposed.

One woman came to me after one course, thanked me for changing her life, saving her career and giving her the confidence to deal with numbers. I really had not taught her anything complicated. Not even GCSE level.

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 18:03

yes who learns things easily by rote as an adult?

you do it when they're little, shove em in there, it's much less painful

niecie, i think they are realising it now. a whole generation has been lost though

mnistooaddictive · 25/09/2010 18:13

Thanks Appletrees. Apparently I am a waste of time. If you think you can do better perhaps you ought to......

Kaloki · 25/09/2010 18:22

I find it easier to not have memorised the times tables. I have never needed to know it by rote. And am actually quite happy working the figures out, means that I'm not reliant on memory - which is never the best thing to rely on anyway.

I think learning multiplication by other methods is actually more versatile.

leftangle · 25/09/2010 18:23

I have a degree in maths and I can't do them. My arithmetic in general is poor - never bothers me. In fact what irritates me is people saying you know maths, add these up. I didn't spend my years at uni adding and multiplying things :)

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 18:24

I suppose it does seem rather personal, but there we are -- you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. I don't know you, perhaps you're the most brilliant teacher in the world. I'm sure you do the best with the material you have to work with, but even if you do, you've got, or had, crappy curriculum limitations and silly ideas handed down from above.

If you look earler I blamed education theorists rather than teachers, though some teachers have certainly toed the party line extremely robustly in my experience.

But the curriculum's been rubbish, and yes, if the results are crap, which they are, then you have to think about what has been so crappy to make that happen.

It doesn't mean you personally are a waste of time.

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 18:25

All those brilliant mathematicians, who don't see any need to use times tables, we do need a method of identifying you at the age of four, so you can be withdrawn from learning early arithmetic and given extra needlework. It seems times tables can only hold you back.

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 18:27

We should stop teaching you number bonds too. What couldn't you learn about the rainforest in the time spent wasted on number bonds? What an exciting prospect.

mrtumblewhereareyou · 25/09/2010 18:29

Remember 9 times table is easy as the unit number goes down by 1 each time:
9
18
27
26 and so on.

Also the even tables are doubles: if you know your 2s then you should know your 4s:
2 4 6 8
4 8 12 16

11 is another easy 1 as is 5

Appletrees · 25/09/2010 18:30

Just another example of people who find numbers easy dismissing the needs of the majority. All this airy "oh you don't need it really"

Really? well my son needs to pass an igcse to get into sixth form. So he does. My younger son needed to work on fractions without worrying about the arithmetic. So he did.

Honestly.

MaMoTTaT · 25/09/2010 18:34

when I was younger I went to a school where we chanted them, then I learned them 2,4,6 times way in the next schhool

I still struggle with them today

I'm ok with 2's, 5's, 10's. 3's and 4's not too bad, but the rest - forget it

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