to think that truely feminist stance on prostitution, is to support legalisation?

[StuckInTheMiddleWithYou]

I recently moved to an inner city area.

There is a known brothel here and a homeless shelter.

I have seen some very sad, desperate sights walking past our home lately.

I wouldn't want any child of mine involved in this trade, however this does strike as something which desperately needs regulating - for the sake of the women, girls and boys involved.

Prohibition has failed miserably.

AIBU?

I don't think anyone said that dittany, what they said was that criminalising prostitution would NOT help them.

I think people would care about the laws if they were enforced. If there were stiff sentences and naming and shaming, then there would be a huge drop in numbers of clients. That's why prostitutes themselves don't want clients criminalised, because they know it would harm the trade.

dittany you are talking out of your backside.

Oh we've got to the "I know more prostitutes than you do and THEY said..."...well nobody can argue with that can they?

Anyway...it's about what THE WOMEN WANT to do with their bodies...not what WE think is reasonable.

BFE - I agree with portiofino no one is going to listen to 'you just cant'. Its like saying you cant take drugs they are illegal.

The majority of the population could easily get their hands on class As, you can have all the campaigns, lessons etc in the world it doesnt change things in the slightest regarding drugs and I doubt it does for prostitution. You are just pushing it underground sex and drugs are always going to sell and there be a big market for them and always will be.

I remember a thread in the feminist section where you got short thrift for your 'all prostitutes are abused' views from actual working girls Dittany. Didnt anything they said sink in?

You want to see vulnerable women protected, then legalise and regulate prostitution, with a system of education in place to protect and encourage them out of it.

For those who WANT to be prostitutes, you really need to accept that some women do this by CHOICE, no matter how disappointed that leaves you.

Well said ccpccp!

Criminalisation of punters would cause a huge drop in demand, because the majority of punters would not think it was worth the risk. That's why prostitutes are against it, since it would harm their business. When the police have an anti-crub crawling initiative, the number of clients plummets and they move to other places. If no place was safe, because it was illegal everywhere and if the police enforced it, then the trade would be curtailed.

anti-kerb crawling

I'm pretty disgusted by this attitude.

Amsterdam is a huge hub for human trafficking and drugs because of their policies. I was recently there with work and walked through the red light district. the women looked degraded, ill and frankly sad.

OP is it ok for women to be bought and sold because they consider themselves commodities. Really that attitude is just dim.

The truly feminist thing is to help them find another way of life - getting off drugs, being free from pimps, getting their freedom back or simply making a better choice/

And presumably the need for the cash would still remain? So other crimes would increase?

Criminalisation of punters would stop some, perhaps even many punters - if the laws could actually be enforced. (How would you know wbout a man in a hotel room, or his own home, calling an independent, consensual WG?) However, it wouldn't deter any of the nastier ones, so those who have no choice but to continue as WGs would have to see more of the nastier ones - and perhaps let them do nastier things, for lower prices. I'm not sure this really helps, unless you also provide rehab, retraining, homes and jobs for these women.

Whitehorn, I totally agree with you. But making this stuff illegal totally drives it underground and gives the women involved less access to help, rather than more.

Yes criminals woul move onto other criminal activities. but that's why we have the police force, to catch them and stamp it out. If we had a zero tolerance policy then crime would also decrease. I'm not sure it should be done, but it is easily possible, if there was a will.

If we had a zero tolerance policy on all crime, I reckon most of us would be crims...

"Most policymakers in the Netherlands believe that if a problem has proved to be unsolvable, it is better to try controlling it and reducing harm instead of continuing to enforce laws with mixed results. By contrast, most other countries take the point of view that recreational drug use is detrimental to society and must therefore be outlawed. This has caused friction between the Netherlands and other countries about the policy for cannabis, most notably with France and Germany. As of 2004, Belgium seems to be moving toward the Dutch model and a few local German legislators are calling for experiments based on the Dutch model. Switzerland has had long and heated parliamentary debates about whether to follow the Dutch model on cannabis, most recently deciding against it in 2004; currently a ballot initiative is in the works on the question. In the last few years certain strains of cannabis with higher concentrations of THC and drug tourism have challenged the current policy and led to a re-examination of the current approach.[2]

While the legalization of cannabis remains controversial, the introduction of heroin-assisted treatment in 1998 has been lauded for considerably improving the health and social situation of opiate-dependent patients in the Netherlands.[3] In 2010 research shows that the "heroin-junkies" have disappered from the streets of the Netherlands and the treatment is upgraded from a test-trail to standard treatment for otherwise untreatable addicts. Also number of heroin addicts has dropped by more than 30% since 1983"

Prostitution in the UK is legal what is illegal however is keeping a brothel, soliciting, kerb crawling and pimping. It is also illegal to pay for sex from a prostitute who has been forced/coerced even if the person did not know they were.

I don't think a making it totally illegal would work, just like it does not work with drugs. The Nordic model is interesting but the near by countries prostitution rates have risen as both prostitutes and punters go to nearby countries to conduct business if they are worried about the illegality of it in their own country. Even so it still occurs just made more secret as prostitutes will feel the need to protect their punters.

At the moment there is toleration which means that there is a green light for punters to go ahead and try it. If there was a red light and it was enforced, less punters would try it. There will always be a small core who will still do it, but there would no longer be enough business to attract women into it. The extent of the problem would be greatly reduced and the police could concentrate their resources on tackling the small core who were still doing it.

In the Netherlands 9.7% of young adults (aged 15?24) consume soft drugs once a month, comparable to the level in Italy (10.9%) and Germany (9.9%) and less than in the UK (15.8%) and Spain (16.4%),[21] but higher than in, for example, Sweden (3%), Finland or Greece.[22] The monthly prevalence of drugs other than cannabis among young people (15-24) was 4% in 2004, that was above the average (3%) of 15 compared countries in EU. However, seemingly few transcend to becoming problem drug users (0.44%), well below the average (0.52%) of the same compared countries.[22]

The reported number of deaths linked to the use of drugs in the Netherlands, as a proportion of the entire population, is lower than the EU average.[23] The Dutch government is able to support approximately 90% of help-seeking addicts with detoxification programs. Treatment demand is rising.[24]

In the Netherlands 9.7% of young adults (aged 15?24) consume soft drugs once a month, comparable to the level in Italy (10.9%) and Germany (9.9%) and less than in the UK (15.8%) and Spain (16.4%),[21] but higher than in, for example, Sweden (3%), Finland or Greece.[22] The monthly prevalence of drugs other than cannabis among young people (15-24) was 4% in 2004, that was above the average (3%) of 15 compared countries in EU. However, seemingly few transcend to becoming problem drug users (0.44%), well below the average (0.52%) of the same compared countries.[22]

The reported number of deaths linked to the use of drugs in the Netherlands, as a proportion of the entire population, is lower than the EU average.[23] The Dutch government is able to support approximately 90% of help-seeking addicts with detoxification programs. Treatment demand is rising.[24]

Firstly I was of the understanding it is very bad MN etiquette to bring up another members posts on a different thread and I have not said that at all regarding the playground issue. Thats just offensive and suggesting I am promoting child abuse?

I am a realist dittany and I know these women are going to do this whether it is legal or not - it has nothing to do with me thinking "their bodies should be available for men to use sexually"

I wonder how you know these women who got out of prostitution that you speak of?

I have never met a working girl who did not want it legalised - as when they get fined for street walking that takes away a lot of their drug money.

As someone who has worked in "in your face" addiction for a long time I suspect you do not know any of the realities of these issues in fact as an ex heroin addict and someone who has experience of being in these positions herself I know you don't.

Does making drugs totally illegal work in Singapore? Probably near enough. Anything will work if it is enforced and the penalties are tough. It is really all about will.

You cannot force people to no longer be addicted to substances.

"You cannot force people to no longer be addicted to substances."

but you can arrest the people supplying them. There are tons of informers and the police know who the main dealers are.