to think that if the comments reagrding the Pope and Catholicism in general were being made about any other religion or group of people...

[domesticsluttery]

...it would be deemed entirely unacceptable?

I don't just mean on MN, it seems to be everywhere. I am not a Catholic, but I am really at a lot of what I have heard.

OK, the abuse scandals are completely shocking. But this doesn't mean that the entire Catholic Church and all of its members were involved. There have been plenty of scandals involving the abuse of children in care homes where it has been covered up by so called professionals, but this doesn't mean that anyone involved in social services is implicated. There are plenty of cases of abuse, doemstic violence etc carried out by teachers, police etc and covered up, this doesn't disgrace the whole profession.

It must be pretty hard going to be a Catholic at the moment. I can't help feeling that if the same kind of comments and outright mocking were being made about other religions there would be an outcry.

Whatever happened to live and let live?

All religions are shit, end of. They are set up to enable some people to have control over others. That some amiable folk take comfort from having an imaginary friend is fair enough, they are welcome to it; no one else needs take any more notice of the followers of the big brand mythologes than they do of those who insist there are fairies and pixies in their flowerbeds, or that homoeopathy isn't a total fucking con.Rational people are not interefering with the rights of 'believers' to believe bullshit by buttonhling them at random in the street or physically attacking them for holding their superstitions - I have friends who believe in many a different variety of crap and we just agree to differ and leave the subject alone.
Debating on forums or in any other public form of discourse is a different matter - people are entitled to put their views and others are entitled to disagree. What the superstitous are mainly whining about is that the rational are simply no longer prepared to tiptoe round superstitious delusion - respecting people's right to believe crap is one thing but no one is obliged to pretend to respect the crap.
The kicking Catholicism is getting at the moment is entirely justified, because Catholicism is inherently full of sexual dysfunction. THat's why there are so many child abusers within its ranks. A religious insitution which is obsessed with controlling and condemning sexual behaviour is bound to appeal to people with extremely unhealthy, abusive attitudes. So a wealthy instituation that condones paedophilia and misogyny and does serious demonstrable damage to public health is getting called out on its bullshit and mocked as well? About time too.

I bet 50 quid that within five years SGB becomes a born again Christian.

Who's in?

I think catholics have put up and suck up the criticisms. No-one could ever defend the actions of the church back then. A lot of organisations, including the legal system, got it wrong, but just by saying that the catholic church is not the only institution to have made mistakes does not excuse it.

It has to learn from those mistakes and ensure they never happen again. I am pleased they commissioned the Nolan Report and I am pleased that Pope Benedict issued a full apology. I understand that this may never be enough for some and I understand why.

I am white English and I understand that the actions of some of my fellow countrymen has been shameful in the past and still is shameful. I feel let down by my country over certain issues and at times I have been ashamed to be English. But then other things happen which have made me proud to be English, like all the aid to Pakistan. So whilst I understand and accept some peoples anger and hatred towards English people, whilst I cannot defend some of my peoples actions, I still choose to live here and call myself english because underneath it all I think we are trying and because underneath it all there are some very good people, english heroes if you like, who are ignored by the media and who for me, represent what being english is all about.

I hope that's the right analogy to make.

SGB, those are your views and you are entitled to hold them.

I'm sure all the non-believers here would thank you for not conforming to the smug, arrogant and hateful attitude that they sometimes get accused of having.

Live and let live, so long as you agree with me eh?

Who could not know that having sex with young children is wrong, fucking hell using a condom is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong, but ritual beatings and sex with children is a grey area? A little boy was punched repeatedly in the face to see if his eyes changed colour, children were killed and hidden, systematic and
organised sexual abuse was covered up.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

BTino: Thing is, being English is not something you really have any control over. I know you could emigrate and take up a new nationality but that's an awful lot of effort to go to just to 'atone' for things either your ancestors did, or politicians you didn't even vote for, did in your name.
If you must belong to some or other brand of superstition, why not choose a nicer one when the one you started with shows itself to be truly vile? If you (generic 'you' BTW) are someone with vague beliefs in a wellmeaning Higher Power, you've got plenty of fairly benign options; quite a lot of the pagan/pantheist groups are quite thoroughly untainted by racism and misogyny. If your inclinations are broadly towards the Abrahamic myths, you could do worse than take up Quakerism (probably the least aggressive version around).

SGB, I love reading what you have to say about religion...always feel informed.

Quakerism built my home town!

I did consider joining the Quakers at one point.

Don't like porridge though.

Posie, I take it you have no interest in reading either Aitch's very good link which debunks the whole cover up myth or my first post which is more detailed. Therefore if you are not going to listen to the other side of the argument there really is no point in continuing the discussion is there?

SGB, yes it's not a perfect analogy. But you see, superstition is actually different to faith, you should look them up. They are not that comparable.

As I said, you may believe in ghosts because of a personal experience you had. I could proffer a handful of reasonings that would explain your experience, but only you know what happened and you will be unable to share that experience with anyone else. You will get people saying that you hallucinated, or were mentally unstable at the time, or just made it up. This is what faith is.

As for atrocities. Well as the church itself admits, it is an organistion that is run by people who are infallible. People commit atrocities, not the church. Yes it has been subject to corruption that has infiltrated the bishops and even some popes. It cannot turn back time, but it has tried to apologise and it has tried to put in place measures to ensure it never happens again.

At the risk of repeating myself, to some that is enough but for others it never will be enough. The pope met victims of child abuse both here and back in Rome, but that too will not be enough.

Yet the fundaments of the church remain for me. I don't apologise for staying a catholic and I forgive you the swearing and condemnatory personal posts you will no doubt aim at me!

And back at ya!

Funnily enough no, the pope meeting victims is not enough

BT....I read Aitch's link, surely you didn't mena for me to change my mind on the basis of an article? As I could come up with loads of those that oppose it.

Jeez.

Admittedly it's hard for us tangible evidence people to be serious with people that believe a man is close to a thing in a book or that that book contains facts, even people that believe in God have to suspend further belief to give that credit.

You do agree that dinosaurs exist don't you?

SGB - people of some faith ( I do take exception to your 'superstition' jibe, but that's up to you) are accepting A LOT of criticism, esp. the RC type.

What is difficult is to witness some posters behaving as if RC church had a monopoly on child abuse, and are simply band-wagoning to get into a bit of catholicism-kicking. This happens in the releatively polite medium of an internet forum. In very recent times it would have been worked out by physical means.

I have no space for your (SGB's) opinions ( for that is all they are) especially when expressed so insultingly and agressively.

Pan....Actually I think you'll find if the Catholic church hadn't had scandal after scandal of the very worst kind there wouldn't be quite so much criticism. Any other organisation that seemed to attract paedophiles would be criticised as much, if not more. Seems to me to suggest that loathing paedophiles is somehow an excuse to bash any religious group really diminishes the severity of these crimes. The Catholic church is vocal about so much that is damaging, contraception, abortion, sex outside of marriage and yet is weirdly quiet about having sex with children.

As I said, in five years SGB will be a born again christian, I bet on it.

IMO, someone who can only defend their views by denigrating/insulting those of others is either:

• actually rather insecure in what they think/believe, so belittling makes them feel better
• a graceless arse.

oh bollocks pp - I think you'll find that catholics have been slain in mass numbers over the centuries for being catholics. It will naturally make catholics sensitive when pitch-forkers ( albeit seemigly polite ones) start t orummage around in their sheds.

and yes, SGB just types a lot.

Abs....what if I was a Scientologist or a Satanist? Would you still offer good grace?

What if SGB sees patriarchal religion as destructive and one that puts women in countlessly shite situations?

After several years studying religions, and gainiong a degree, I did indeed decide to follow the Quaker path. I don;t attend meeting right now (the local one cannot take children, tiny little village meeting) but intend to in future and actively try and live it- often failing.

Funny that- lots of Lecturers who are anti- organised faith will happily say they are pro Quaker

But it only takes one individual and we will have scandal too yet

I still won't believe in controlling use of contraception even if it opens people to HIV (;ast time I said that on here a Catholic said that they shouldn;t sleepa round then.... as if HIV is only existent in those who have broken any moral code (not that it would make it alright but I hope YKWIM- writng those people off as non existent, or any as deserving of HIV, is abhorrent). I don't wish people to be unable to seek a termination especially following rape, even if I wouldn't choose one msyelf. I am fervently not homophobic.

And i;ve never laughed at any faith group in my lie but do really struggle with Catholicism becuase as far as I can see, at the Vatican level, it is *not good. And I couldn't profess dedication to something that is so (IMVHO) anti tolerance.

The worst thing about religious types is the need to talk about history.....it's simply not relevant in an age where science is the true God, that gives previously ignorant people answers.

I don't think Catholics are very relevant in this day and age and don't really represent a threat to anyone or anything. Personally I fear the less wishy washy worshipper, like our good Muslim citizens with the new less malleable form of control. That religion is far more brazen about it's gender inequality and offers that to your everyday follower not just those in the church. The idiocy about contraception, homosexuality etc most people ignore in this country and Catholics only damage themselves with this prejudice.

In short without the Priests having sex with boys and girls and the ritual beatings and cruelty noone really noticed or listened to what the Catholics had to say about anything really.

And what's with the Quaker prroidge LOL? Unabel to eat oats or miolk me, cake all the way here!

Quakers seem very fair and just, even the millionaire Quakers I know live a fair and just life, not extravagant or wasteful!!

You with your clever logic!

PMSL Riv

I am far from fair and l;acking in waste

But I try to be, which is perhaps enough (not a millionaire though sadly... wish I was, have just the cahrity I want to set up with it LOL )

Oh OK, maybe not halo. Shoes, holiday and diagnostic support charity for kids with SN?

nice Quaker

crumbs pp - I had no idea your thinking was so small as to say historical experience is irrelevant.

it's not unlike SGBs assertion that she has friends who disagree with her. Given her aggression, this sounds inauthentic.

Haven't read the whole thread but had to LOL at Catholics saying that homophobia is wrong (on first page) - FFS - it's YOU LOT who say they are morally corrupt, can't be part of your church and are going to hell!

AND I can't understand any catholic who says they are not homophobic/that they believe in condoms to prevent the spread of aids etc. One of the central beliefs of the catholic church is the infallability of the Pope - the belief that he is "God's representative on earth" - if you believe that then you have to agree with his stance on these issues??? And if you don't believe in papap infallibility then how can you be a Catholic??????