to think that if the comments reagrding the Pope and Catholicism in general were being made about any other religion or group of people...

[domesticsluttery]

...it would be deemed entirely unacceptable?

I don't just mean on MN, it seems to be everywhere. I am not a Catholic, but I am really at a lot of what I have heard.

OK, the abuse scandals are completely shocking. But this doesn't mean that the entire Catholic Church and all of its members were involved. There have been plenty of scandals involving the abuse of children in care homes where it has been covered up by so called professionals, but this doesn't mean that anyone involved in social services is implicated. There are plenty of cases of abuse, doemstic violence etc carried out by teachers, police etc and covered up, this doesn't disgrace the whole profession.

It must be pretty hard going to be a Catholic at the moment. I can't help feeling that if the same kind of comments and outright mocking were being made about other religions there would be an outcry.

Whatever happened to live and let live?

I have to say that I feel it most here on MN. I've been a Catholic all of my 39 years and have never come across such hatred as I do on these boards. In fact, correction, I have never come across any hatred, except for on here. And I do feel it has been aimed at the individual as much as the institution.

The institution is fair game for criticism, I have no issue with that, the priests involved, the pope, whatever. But when people call me a child abuser and tell me that I'm an accomplice for my 2yo to be sexually abused by sending her to a Catholic pre-school then it starts to get upsetting. And yes, of course it's not as upsetting as those that were abused, of course I'm not disputing that. But there have been some pretty vile things directed at the Catholic in the street on here. Words on a screen maybe, but upsetting words from a 'community' that I'm usually happy to feel part of. These days I'm not so sure.

Bit weird really, to say that sexism and homophobia are frowned upon while criticising Catholics is ok, when so much of the criticism of Catholicism is due to the institutional sexism and homophobia??

I admit that generally, I do frown on sexism and homophobia. I extend that to institutions too, which covers most organised religions.

ER- not making jokes about catholics or catholicism.
I object to their outdated and offensive moral views.
Am fed up with the idea that Atheists are" Catholic bashing "
I actively oppose their appalling moral views.
Am not idly standing about thinking because they believe in god and i dont they are wrong the ISSUE is that I believe their morals are wrong.

"Are you saying that being blatantly sexist or homophobic is a bad thing, Dom? Because you are on dodgy ground now"

Why am I on dodgy ground?

Or do you find homophobic and sexist comments acceptable too?

Well, the Catholic church does, dom. I believe that was BoF's point...

But that's the point Orm. Would the same people who mock Christianity mock Islamic beliefs? Not all of them. It may be a case of familiarity. Or, in some cases, fear and ignorance.

I don't find sexism and homophobia acceptable, no

But the Catholic Church seems quite comfortable with it.

Irony meter exploding now I think

But people who slag off Islam - often woefully misguidedly - often don't slag off Christianity, spikey, so what's your point? If you mean by ignorance that I, for example, don't know enough of the detail of Islamic belief to feel qualified to critique it in the way I do Christianity, then yes, I'm ignorant.

I have never felt any personal hatred on here for being a Catholic. I think you could probably take it personally, but when you are discussing a child abuse cover up of really quite staggering propotions, it seems a bit "me, me, me" to take it personally when people are angry about it. It's aimed at my church, and I know that people think we should just walk away, and I try to explain that it isn't so easy.

I think people have come perilously close to calling people with a religious belief necessarily unintelligent, and that used to irk me, but it is so clearly just, well, wrong, that now I dismiss it as a weak argument and move on.

No, because Christianity is part of our status quo.

I'll happily criticise any religion, actually, especially the major world religions. It's a free world, isn't it? People have been critiquing and commenting on religion since religion began.

Personally, I am bloody glad so many people do speak out against all that is reactionary, homophobic, misogynistic, hypocritical etc.

It is very easy to attack big targets. Where is the glory in that?

Catholic abuses are in the past and we need to move on. It has done damage to all churches, and is not limited to the catholic church, but what has happened cannot be magically undone. the key thing is to learn from it and make sure it doesn't happen again.

YANBU.

I burned a pope once.

That popemobile's rubbish off the line, I had him beat in 2nd.

Attack big targets? I don't understand your point.

My point is that I oppose a lot of what the RC church stands for. I think the Pope talks the most incredibly irresponsible and horrible load of guff. I fundamentally disagree with almost everything he says.

I hope the Pope and his Bishops and Priests and all the other old blokes running the Church do learn from their mistakes, I really do.

Sorry MmeBlueberry
but until the catholic church changes its views on Women,children and homosexuality then catholic abuses are current.

OP, do you not perhaps think that the Pope and the RC hierarchy have rather brought it upon themselves? Because, tbh, the Pope has said many a thing that has made me tell him to fuck off inside my head roll my eyes, but I can't say that the Dalai Lama has.

Or is that my "aggressive secularism" showing?

I think that MmeBlueberry would rather we marched in our thousands against the local corner shop having a slightly off-true set of scales, or the lollipop man not doing his tie properly.

Instead of the richest religious body in the world colluding in the molestation of children, of preaching hate against women, homosexuals and others; of witholding aid to those of different religions

AND OF ELECTING A FUCKING NAZI TO THEIR HIGHEST OFFICE.

Ahem.

WhereYouLrftIt.

The biggest glory comes in attacking the biggest most impregnable targets. They are the ones that are most deserving of attack usually.

MmB, it's the "yes, it was terrible, but it's all over and done with" attitude that irks so many people. What happened to a genuine and heartfelt mea culpa? I heard a victim of the abuse on the radio, commenting on what the Pope had said - he said "I can say I'm sorrowful about the wars or famines in the world, but that doesn't say anything about whether I, as a person or representative of an institution, take any responsibility for these things".

MmeBlueberry, I think you should listen to the victims. They say it is NOT over. They are still suffering.

It might be very convenient for the apologists to claim it is somehow 'over' and everyone should move on. But they are wrong. Most decent people believe child abuse is evil. And that institutionalised child abuse is horrific. Especially practised by an organisation that purports to be in charge of morality.

IF the Pope handed over all the information the church possesses to the police in every country, IF he and his church truly repented and attempted to be honest about what had happened, then maybe the atmosphere might change. Maybe. But he ain't in any hurry to do that.

I'm not really after glory.

I just want women to be treated equally, gay and lesbian people not to be cast as 'sinners' and people in piss poor countries at extreme risk of contracting HIV not to be instructed that contraception is wrong.

Y'know, that kinda stuff.

"Mockery is wrong. Debate is fine. That goes for all religions"

Thanks Spikycow, you managed to sum up exactly how I feel in one line.