to think this is normal motherhood?

[foreverastudent]

AIBU to think that feeling tired, moody, irritable, tearful, lonely, guilty, sore, tense, unable to cope, overwhelmed and trapped, along with having difficulty eating, sleeping, getting out, concentrating, motivating yourself and not wanting as much sex as before is

normal motherhood

and should be conquered by having better support systems in place, either provided by family, friends, community or the state

not

by boosting the profits of a company that made $5.49 billion in the 1st quarter of 2010.

Iggi, I think what the OP is saying is that most PND symptoms are just a 'normal' part of motherhood and can be eased by more support.

That's just not on (and not true).

I think we'd all agree that [fairly often] GP's fob us off with the easy/ cheap way out. Sadly, the country cannot afford counselling to the extent it can afford AD's. Look at NHS waiting lists, blah, blah, blah. So let's just accept the AD's and not 'label' them as it seems she is doing.

But do all of you who have had PND as a serious illness not slightly resent people who are just a wee bit down and who would feel a lot better if they had a walk given the same label see the point that PND should not be trivialised and medication shouldn't be offered to mums who are, well, experiencing some of what is described in the OP as a normal, short-term reaction to babyshock?

Kate, please talk to a GP. It's horrible feeling like a different person, as if you've been 'taken over' by someone else.

arses, I don't mind! I think the vast majority of people (ones I know anyway) don't want to talk about it, or admit it. I think the more open and accepting we are of depression in general, the better it will be.

katesmate see your doctor or midwife asap, please get help, help is available and you will be fine, it will all be OK.

People's points about other countries are great. I have often thought that some of the various sanctimonious hippies I have listened to ought to go and live in a mud hut if they think it's such a noble and wise existence.

OP - are you aware that NICE guidelines are now suggesting talking therapy over anti-depressants as a first line of treatment for mild to moderate depression and anxiety? Yes, pharma companies do have a lot of power, but in this field, in this country, the previous government actually dedicated millions to building up talking therapies and the current government has pledged to continue for now at least to fund it.

Our society has become very individualistic and perhaps this is why the demand for counsellors/therapist grows and grows - as communities/families/traditional support systems break down - do you have suggestions as to how a government facilitates the return of these? Suicide rates tend to rise as countries industrialise. It's not much good going on about "they" - we are "they". If people want more counselling and therapy available on the NHS they need to make this clear to policy makers.

arses - that would be a bit of a Top Trumps attitude to ones own depression, wouldn't it?

I don't resent anyone being given help if they need it. I suppose it would only be concerning if someone was prescribed ADs if they weren't depressed, but I can't imagine it happens often.

Katesmate - sounds a lot like AND to me. (I had it). I would say that for your own sake and your baby's you should seek help now, or you are at very high risk of developing PND.

Medical professionals can help, and then you'll be able to enjoy your baby. (Congratulations btw).

I found with my first child I experienced all of these things (apart from not eating - unfortunately)but not all of the time. I think that is the difference. If you feel like this some of the time then you are probably ok but if it's all of the time then you are not and you need help fast and if that is in tablet form then so be it

Katesmate your GP will help you. Please call, tomorrow, and get an emergency appointment. It will be worth it, I promise you. :)

FYI Katesmate

'OP - are you aware that NICE guidelines are now suggesting talking therapy over anti-depressants as a first line of treatment for mild to moderate depression and anxiety?'

That's a bit bloody pointless if there's a 9 month waiting list for counselling though, as there is in our area!

I have had my own experience of both antenatal & PND. Neither has been very pleasant.

At my worst with PND, I had planned how I was going to kill myself, taken all the necessary legal steps to ensure my kids and DH were provided for and had been overwhelmed by a bizarre feeling that all this was completely rational, which of course it wasn't, my memories of that time are somewhat vague as i was so offline but somehow I was referred to our local PND mother & baby unit for assessment. My DH came with me and was shocked when he heard everything that had been going through my head, it freaked him out that I could feel that bad and had given no outward signs apart from seeming v calm all the time.

Thankfully for me I rec'd targeted help and got through it eventually, I was offered ADS but felt that I didn't want to take them. If I had done I may have got better more quickly.

Everyone's experience of any mental illness is highly subjective and personal to them and cannot be generically covered by a one-treatment-fits all approach.

As for the neighbourly support, if you live where I do you would not eat anything cooked by your neighbours, no matter how good their intentions were :O

ummmm can you kindly state examples of countries you feel give adequate support to mothers please?

YANBU

But it's not about 'support'.

I think the way we live makes PND much worse.

I don't think it's good for humans to live in such tiny, isolated units, alone with our children behind closed doors.

'Support' is great, but even the most helpful family and friends can't be there all the time.

It's the lack of communal life that does for some of us, and the intensity of having our children with us ALL THE TIME.

Wanted to add, I'm taking prozac - got depressed last year after developing very bad health anxiety, getting properly physically ill because of anxiety and lack of sleeping and eating. It was terrible - I was too exhausted to parent my children in the way they needed and we are all still paying the price this year. I have to say that the OP's post speaks a lot to me. The thing that made me the most ill was the panic induced by having to care for myself, my home and my children day in, day out, when I felt so tired and ill that all I wanted to do was chuck myself under a bus.

Some of these feelings occasionally could very well be described as normal. But some or most of them persistently is completely different. I wouldn't wish depression on anyone but people who read some half baked online rubbish and decide it means depression is a big conspiracy really grip my shit.

I have experienced all of the things mentioned in the OP.

Not because I have had children but because one of those children died.

No amount of support, help, understanding, love etc would have stopped those feelings. Drugs dont cure grief but they can certainly give your brain a break now and then.

I would imagine that this is the case for PND although I am lucky enough never to have suffered from it.

Mental illness/distress is just not as simple as having someone to give you a cuddle to make it better.

Maybe in African tribes PND doesnt exist, maybe it does but cultural pressures do not allow women to express their pain and confusion? Maybe the shame is so great in some countries it is better to suffer in silence?

No, not top trumps at all.

I'm not talking about a 'my depression is worse than yours' pissing competition: I'm talking about the difference between a woman who mentions to the HV that she is feeling a bit low and isolated (but doesn't consider herself depressed) as a way of seeking, say, support to find out about local groups or ways of meeting other mums against women who are going through hell on earth.

I suppose what I'm saying is that there probably are bored, lonely women who reach out to others to have their (real) boredom and loneliness heard, perhaps looking for some general signposting to relevant local services for them) who may be told they have PND (me being one of 'em!) and I just wonder if pathologising these normal feelings reduces societal understanding of what PND is.

I know that when it was suggested to me that I might have PND, I really worried about it: I had to really think about it and step back and look at what was really happening in my life.

I think it's important that normal mild-moderate feelings of "babyshock" are not confused with depressive illness in women's minds so that they become something they're not and detract from our understanding for and empathy for PND sufferers.. for example, if I believed I had PND as it has been suggested to me by a professional, and I met someone who had PND as I understand it as a depressive illness, then I might well say: 'ooh, you know meeting other mums on netmums helped me lots' or 'going for a walk lifted my mood SO much'.

And that isn't helpful..

I am probably not phrasing this very well. I suppose I worry about normal feelings being labelled as depression. I don't have any issue with any woman choosing to view her own experience as being PND, I suppose I am talking about professionals suggesting it quite blithely as though it were, oh, the common cold.

It's late! No idea if I am making sense.

i think you are right in that all the things you mention are part and parcel of normal motherhood and most people would agree that feeling the whole lot on odd days and even the odd week is common. However feeling like that 24hrs a day ,7 days a week ,getting progressively worse is not . Some people come out the otherside without drugs , alot of people need the drugs simply to exist until they are better and rarely some people dont make it all .

I had a good deal of support from friends, family etc but still had PND. I needed help as I was getting very very depressed and it was affecting my relationship with my husband, the way my daughter reacted to me. Tablets made me better and I've been off them for nearly a year.

Some of the issues you describe are not normal motherhood in my experience but a symptom of a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Until you've experienced it yourself, I'd thank you to keep your narrow minded opinions to yourself.

be a love and fuck right off

a have a chemical imbalance which my medications helps me with

I may not have suffered with PND but have been on meds for depession in the past.

Your OP is ill informed and potentially damaging to anyone suffering from PND and wondering if they should seek help.

Rarely a thread makes me on MN but this is one of them. Who the hell are you to post such a load of utter shite that could make a poorly person feel 10x worse?

You should be ashamed.

Utter bollocks. I have a terrific husband, a big family on both sides who are nearby and who I think the world of. They were supportive, not critical, I had all the support I could ask for.

But I still wanted to kill myself and often still do. I'm not on tablets now, but by God I wish I was. 'Support' just isn't doing it for me, sorry to disappoint you.

arses, I hear you. And you are speaking from experience, which I don't think the OP is.

BUT I think there's 2 problems with what you say:

• as someone else pointed out, AD prescriptions are not frequently 'automatic' for fairly 'low grade' symptoms. I had to ASK my GP, and I had support of a psychologist (which was why the GP prescribed them - as I already had the 'talking' help and it wasn't helping).

• even when a PND diagnosis is made, there aren't many people who will happily jump on it, and accept it as 'truth'. Most people (ime) don't want to admit they're depressed. I waited for 15 months until I was pretty bad.

I think it's far more likely that people will 'put up with' what they want to think is 'normal'. Posts like the OP's make that more likely to happen. And actually, as many of the posts here testify, there is a cost to that. As far as I can see, there's VERY few people on this thread (I know it's not exactly representative, but it is an indicator...) who feel they were misdiagnosed with PND and the pills did them no good whatsoever.

"BTW a lot of Mums dont 'ask' for help- the Edinburgh scale test is routinely given to all new mums at 6-8 weeks, tick the right (or wrong) boxes and it's an automatic prescription. Unlike a broken bone, where you would be seen/operated on by an orthopaedic doctor, Mums are 'diagnosed' with PND without ever having a full consultation with a psychiatrist. Hence why a lot who actually have PTSD are mis-diagnosed."

OP, that is not my experience or that of anyone I know. I'd be very surprised if it were a widespread approach.

Your original OP and responses are hardly well argued. if you want to knock Big Pharma, please start a different thread. If you want to debate PND and its treatment, please start a different thread. Your current thread (whether or not intentionally) is arrogant in that it is based on assumptions about why women get PND and what treatment they need, but there is no 'one size fits all' answer to that. You can't airily suggest that anti-depressant medication shouldn't be given. (And bear in mind the efficacy of those drugs is far better in severe depression that in mild to moderate depression.)

I'd agree with a general statement that the NHS is very poor at treating mental illness and still doesn't fund support and therapy well enough, so gives out pills instead, but (as Eurostar inferred in her excellent post) that is really because of us as a society. I don't think blaming pharmaceutical companies for all that is really credible.