to think this is normal motherhood?

[foreverastudent]

AIBU to think that feeling tired, moody, irritable, tearful, lonely, guilty, sore, tense, unable to cope, overwhelmed and trapped, along with having difficulty eating, sleeping, getting out, concentrating, motivating yourself and not wanting as much sex as before is

normal motherhood

and should be conquered by having better support systems in place, either provided by family, friends, community or the state

not

by boosting the profits of a company that made $5.49 billion in the 1st quarter of 2010.

//In other cultures/societies, where mothers are properly supported, they don't get any of these symptoms in the first place.//

Please cite your source/s.

In selecting your sources, remember that absence of evidence is not evidence if absence, so you'll have to provide links to studies that investigate the incidence if the symptoms you list in the OP, and compare rates of those symptoms in the UK versus other cultures.

To constitute evidence in support of your claim, you'll need well-designed studies which not only demonstrate conclusively that said symptoms do not occur in the societies that you are referring to (or occur at levels so much lower than those in the UK as to be statistically significant), but also that the low incidence of those symptoms is directly linked to the support mechanisms you refer to (ie, make sure that the studies you cite control for other, non-societal factors which might have an impact on the rates of the symptoms in question).

to people who are pro-pills- where are you getting your information from?

GPs? Then read this

advertising?

then read this

the media?

then read this

And considering that the sale of pharmaceuticals is proping up the UK economy (its almost our biggest export) dont expect an unbiased line from our Government.

BTW, I had to ASK for the AD's!

It is actually very dangerous (imo) to make such flippant comments about pnd and ads (which is what you are doing op, even if you are being a bit "clever" and cryptic about it and trying to backpedal)

I have nursed many patients who have deteriorated (which made lead to prolonged depression and even suicidal thoughts/attempts) because people who know nothing about depression/pnd give them advice.

I have heard all kinds of crap about how ads are really addictive, people should get their act together etc etc.

Ads may only be one of the treatments that help with depression (alongside talking therapy and other support) but imo they are a vital part of treatment for many many people.

Also. Is anyone here routinely given free Smarties?

I get some of my information from my 3 year mental health nurse training. I also work closely alongside a consultant psychiatrist.

May we ask about your qualifications OP?

After the birth of ds, i was feeling really overwhelmed to the point where everything was a major effort. Went to gp who prescribed me prozac.

I never took it as I knew what i really needed was more support and someone to talk to.

OP are you saying that meds are prescribed too frequently when other therapies should be tried first? If so, i agree with you.

However, medication has helped an awful lot of people who have suffered with severe PND to the point where they can't function.

LilredWG telling OP to fuck off was really rude and unecessary IMO.

I don't really think it sounds like normal motherhood tbh
If people feel like that, and medication is available for them to help them then yes they should have it
really don't get your point?

Yes.

I got a lot of "when I feel a bit low I go for a nice walk" type 'advice'.

I never replied: 'so what do you do when you genuinely believe your baby, husband and extended family would be better off if you ceased to exist? Go for a longer walk?'

Because I'm nice like that.

Actually, I recovered without ADs, but would take them like a shot if it happened again.

OP, actual clinical depression is not normal motherhood... And this is not a pro or anti pills post. ADs have really helped several close family members, but of course they are not always the answer.

And there are docs on the nhs who don't dole 'em out at the drop of a hat. I know, because I begged my dr for some once (he was right, and it got better....)

Sometimes ADs are the answer, or simply a short term help, sometimes not... But surely we all know this???

forever, I am getting my information from my own experience!

I knew nothing about them except that if I took them than I was joining the gang of 'mental patients' so I stayed off for ages, until, probably mixed with PND or whatever, things got really bad.

I think most people who are offended by your post have got their information from experience.

Boo clearly going for a nice little walk is great if someone is feeling a bit low! This is the problem when people have no experience or understanding of depression or indeed any other mental health issues.

As you say, the little walk is not so great when someone is depressed.

Glad to hear you are recovered now. :)

OP - My GP explained to me that (very broadly speaking) there are two types of depression.

1. Linked to a traumatic event, bereavement, abuse etc - this type of depression responds very well to therapy.
2. A chemical imbalance - this rarely responds to therapy as often the patient will say that everything is fine and dandy but they just don't know why they feel as they do.

PND is type number two. As for all of your solutions; I suffered PND after the birth of my second child. The birth was a textbook homebirth, baby was a dream (slept 7-7 at 9 weeks old), DS showed no great sibling rivalry, my husband is fantastic, couldn't do more to help generally, we have no financial worries whatsoever, we could have afforded a nanny etc. if I felt that was needed, I have a great cleaner who helps in other ways, great friends.....

I could go on. I had PND because it was an illness that I 'caught' for want of a better description.

I have never been knowingly rude to a poster on Mumsnet but you are talking out of your arse.

Forever the only thing on that list that I felt as a new mother was tired....but then I felt pretty tired when I was not a mum too...

Call me a liar though if you must

What people are objecting to is the over simplification and misunderstanding of what it is to suffer PND.

Other cultures don't report depression in general to the same extent. This doesn't necessarily mean that they don't experience it. It might be under reported because of stigma. It might be experienced and reported as physical pain rather than mental anguish.

Do you have a go at someone for using crutches if they have a broken leg?

Do you have a go at someone with diabetes using insulin?

Do you have a go at someone with two broken arms asking for help?

No?

Then stop having a go at people who are receiving treatment for depression. Spent a few hours curled up clutching a knife, willing yourself to have the strength to kill yourself so it all stops hurting, having voices screaming in your head telling you the world is ending at that its your fault, seeing things that aren't there everywhere you look, and then maybe we'll see if you feel you need some medication or not.

You can have all the support in the world and still be daydreaming about what would happen if you fell down the stairs and never woke up, or what would happen if you crashed your car so badly you didn't have to go back home just to be able to make it all stop. Those moments when you feel that that little person you have brought into the world would be so much better of without you are still there even with an army of "help".

Thank you onepieceoflollipop.

(I'm going to run away now as I fear I am attention-seeking).

In some ways I agree with you but also think you are a bit naiive. I know an Asian society quite well which on the outside could be classed as 'looking after new Mums really well' but, it is so much more complex than you think it is. Yes, maybe they help with the cooking and cleaning and looking after the kids (for a while), however:

a) the 'honeymoon' period is soon over and once it is, it's business as usual and you are still expected to continue your chores and look after the baby

b) in rurual areas you might get a few weeks to rest, then you strap the baby to your back and continue your work

c) if you have PND, it is certainly not as recognised as much as it is here and there is hardly any support at all. PND is a chemical imbalance in the brain and whilst I'm no pill-popper myself and am quite anti-pharma, even I recognise that sometimes you just have to take things to help you along

d) I could continue on and on how it's not really that much better elsewhere

So, don't get me wrong, there are always things that could be done to make life easier for anyone in a society, don't forget however, the grass isn't always greener....

fairycake- here

Margery of Kempe, back in the year dot, had PND, maybe even postnatal psychosis.

I have no doubt that PND exists and that it is a severe and profound illness that requires medication in many cases.

However I do think that there are people who have a label foisted upon them when they need support.

I have had some miserable times since having my son and having him has brought up all sorts of sadnesses related to my own childhood. At one point, I failed a driving test and in my sleep-deprived, slightly sad state I really did wonder about PND. I did the Edinburgh test and got 17.. I suspect that if I talked to my GP about how I feel on a day when I am feeling a bit more negative, ADs would be suggested. They have in the past for the general sadness I carry with me from my childhood.

But I really, truly do not believe I have PND. I think I am sometimes sad, sometimes anxious, often a bit isolated and that when I make the effort to go out and socialise and think of now vs forever in terms of my isolation, I feel good and my symptoms disappear.

This does not negate the experience of those who really do need the meds but I have spoken to other mothers like me and I do feel PND is a label that can be rather liberally applied, to the detriment of true understanding of the extent of a serious and very real mental health problem.

OP, sounds like me on a good day and I am not (yet) a mother!

I have been offered ADs twice. The GPs seemed really intent on me taking them. When I asked if I could just have counselling I was told I would have to wait up to a year as I was 'low priority'. But clearly not low enough to not be prescribed ADs .

First time I took them. They worked but I had pretty strange side effects so the second time I was offered them I refused. Told the GP I just needed to talk to someone outside of my friends and family. Was in a very lonely place and stressed. Was put on low priority list and two years later have not heard from counselling service!

Have pulled through it, clearly not severe depression like a lot of the posters on here have experienced, but low lying.

I am a case that would have benefited from counselling because I don't think I had a chemical imbalance, I was just feeling shit and needed to talk to someone.

I'm off out but will return to this, I hope I've not offended anyone on here. I'm just trying to say that lower levels of 'depression' (if that is what I had, and I don't like to take the term lightly) can possibly be dealt with through counselling. Severe forms of depression clearly need medication-based help.

arses, I agree.

feeling all of the things you describe in your OP for more than a few weeks is intolerable, i felt it for years

with the help of meds, therapy and in patient treatment, i got well

i had loads of help and support in the early days, but due to various stresse and a traumatic birth, my brain chemistry conked out

due to shitty doctors and HV and thinking ' i am supposed to feel like this' i did not seek help for well over a year, digging myself in much deeper, and something that could have been averted, became a really big awful time that spanned years

so YABU, stupid and offensive

and OPs like this piss me off as they demonstrate such a basic lack of undersatnding

i had everything i needed/wanted and yet my life fell apart

so doubled with the deprssion, i hda the guilt too