to be sick of the way some people react to 'freedom of expression'

[NotSoScary]

Before I continue, just want to clarify that I myself am a Muslim.

Im just so sick of all the attacks on Islam but Im even more sick of the reactions these cause. Examples include the Satanic Versus, the Prophets cartoon and more recently 'burn a koran day'. I mean what is the bleeding point in burning flags and protesting when these things happen? I get it, everyone has a right to express themselves and if u dont like Islam or dont agree with it, fine, express away. All I care about is being able to practise my faith and respecting all others, I truly believe in live and let live.

The reactions we are getting right now to burn a koran day is just so over the top, no one would even know about it if people just ignored it. The ignorant fool that came up with the day has never even read the koran so if u really want to do something about it, why not challenge him to a debate?

Sorry, I dont really know what Im trying to say, just needed to rant. Im just so tired of all the negative press on Islam all the time and cant help but think if it wernt for OTT reactions, it wouldnt be there. We're not all the same.

Religons aren't intolerant or intolerant. They are abstract concepts. People are tolerant or intolerant.

Goth - I was not being disingenuous actually. Many candidates did write 'I am a Muslim' as a preface to their answer. One candidate from the hundreds I marked this summer did actually claim within the course of 3 responses to be two different denominations of Christian and a Muslim as well. I was merely trying to lighten the tone.

I did say that the Fatwah on Rushdie was 20th Century, but these are still imposed, and unless I am mistaken Carla Bruni-Sarkozy was called a whore last week by the regime in Iran for writing an open letter in support of the woman who is due to be stoned. What fair trial has this woman had? Do you as a woman living in the West, with access to a fair legal system accept that she should be killed in a brutal and barbaric manner because of her supposed adultery?

I am not obsessed by stoning - but I am confused that these punishments are seen as appropriate in the 21st Century. The attempt to murder the cartoonist who drew the cartoons of Muhammed is also a case in point. Christians ignore or shrug off cartoons of Christ, why can't Muslims do the same with cartoons of Muhammed?

I accept that your religion (or one's religion) shapes one's world view to a certain extent, but I grew up questioning religion to the point I went from a conformed and practising member of the CofE to an agnostic verging on the atheist at times. It struck me that the kids in the exam weren't questioning anything at all, and that to me is wrong.

I am a Christian and am deeply disturbed by this utter idiot in Florida.

I am part of a group called secretbelievers.org who support Christians in Muslim countries. Most face death, financial ruin and torture on a daily basis because they do not follow Islam. They ave no rights.

As a consequence of this mans actions there will have been many more deaths and brutalities. Of course this does not excuse the extreme reactions of Muslims. If Allah is so great then he really doesn't need mere mortals to fight his battles, and doing it in hatred would be abhorant to him.

I wish you'd stop conflating the actions of an oppressive regime with all Muslims everywhere. Iran languishes near the bottom of most human rights leagues. As it did in the days of the Shah.

Can you really not see the context the whole cartoons affair took place in. Do you really think it was just about the cartoons? Or expressing outrage at perceived ill treatment by the West? Or that regimes in countries where there were the biggest demonstrations, were happily encouraging their citizens to blow off steam and be distracted from more pressing issues domestically.

You say Muslims don't question, how do you know? You don't, you just assume.

I've explained to you, why those children might identify so strongly, but you just shrug it off.

I'm trying to explain to you, but you just respond with, 'but in Iran, but in Saudi, but that nutty Muslim in the Netherlands', We're talking about over a billion people here.

ShakesPear - No they don't. Maybe some do, in some countries, but then you'll find they are countries with a widespread fondness for torturing their citizens anyway. Oh, and Allah is the same God you worship. Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Hence Allah is written in Arab Christian bibles.

All this vitriol about a non existant being.

FYI, there is no God/Allah the Easter Bunny is a figment of someones imagination, Santa Claus is a childrens story (shame) and Jack Frost does not ice up windows and whisper it but there isnt a Lion called Aslan

I've just seen the idiot himself on BBC world. WHy on earth he's on BBC world, I don'T know. DH is V confused because obviously it ain't news. It's non - news, disinformation fed to keep people sheep-like and in a state of fear of muslims and keep them compliant so that when they do decide to invade the next muslim country everyone will be in favour.

Goth, I'm not conflating anything, you are.

No, I don't believe that all Muslims accept or agree with the Hudd punishments, but you say non- Muslims are more obsessed with stoning as a form of capital punishment than Muslims. That's because in much of the Western World the death penalty no longer exists, and because it's bloody barbaric. I note that you haven't responded to my question: 'Do you as a woman living in the West, with access to a fair legal system accept that she should be killed in a brutal and barbaric manner because of her supposed adultery?'

'You say Muslims don't question, how do you know? You don't, you just assume.' No, I said, if you read what I wrote, that it seemed to me that the exam candidates did not question - that hardly equates to the whole Ummah does it?

'I've explained to you, why those children might identify so strongly, but you just shrug it off.' I didn't shrug it off at all, I noted it mentally.

You're not actually explaining anything to me as far as I can see. Yes, I will refer to Iran as that is topical (it wasn't me that referred to Saudi btw), and trying to murder someone because they drew a cartoon of a long dead man seems a tad extreme. Yes, the cartoons were tasteless but the reaction was overdone. In Western Europe most things are up for grabs to make a point or to be used for satirical purposes, religion included.

'Oh, and Allah is the same God you worship. Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Hence Allah is written in Arab Christian bibles.' The Christian God has a triune nature, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, whereas I understood that Tawhid rejects this.

the reason the nutters and fundametalists of this world get more coverage is because they are more interesting for want of a better word than someone like yourself OP . Im afraid interviewing a clearly sane and moderate muslim like yourself ,whilst you talk about how unseasonably inclement the weather is ,does not sell advertising space .
As for the man in the us ,perhaps it would be worth pointing out to him that Hitler had a thing for burning books too ,although i suspect he is probably antisemetic too .

I didn't answer, your question because it should be obvious what my opinion is. She should not be punished.

And Muslims do believe their God is the God of Abraham and Moses. They believe the God is the same, it's the texts that each religion follows is different. As an RE teacher I'm surprised you don't know that.

I have no idea how I'm conflating anything. You claim to want insight, but you don't like the insight I'm giving.

I didn't answer, your question because it should be obvious what my opinion is. She should not be punished.

And Muslims do believe their God is the God of Abraham and Moses. They believe the God is the same, it's the texts that each religion follows is different. As an RE teacher I'm surprised you don't know that.

I have no idea how I'm conflating anything. You claim to want insight, but you don't like the insight I'm giving.

Well no, it's not obvious, hence the question after your comment about non-Muslims being more obsessed with stoning than Muslims.

Yes, I know that Muslims believe their God is the God of Abraham and Moses; what I am saying is that the nature of the CHRISTIAN God is triune, different from that of Judaism and Islam. I wouldn't say it is just the texts that are different, it's the way the various religions have changed over the centuries and adapted to the modern world, including textual interpretation.

You are conflating from 'It struck me that the kids in the exam weren't questioning anything at all, and that to me is wrong.' to 'You say Muslims don't question, how do you know? You don't, you just assume.'

You are not explaining to me at all Goth. Explain to me why the Hudd punishments are still considered acceptable in the 21st Century by some Muslims. Explain to me why, if the regime in Iran is so bad, the people don't revolt and overthrow it? They have done this before after all. Explain to me why some Muslims will try to uphold a Fatwah that calls for the murder of someone else. That's the insight/explanation I'm looking for .... why they believe/do these things?; where it is mandated that the rulings of a Fatwah must be carried out, even if it is illegal (under the law of a country) to do so. What drives some Muslims to do this?

"I didn't answer, your question because it should be obvious what my opinion is."
"You claim to want insight, but you don't like the insight I'm giving"

You can't have it both ways.
I have tried debating with muslims on MN and usually come away no wiser than when I started. It's like trying to knit fog.
There does seem to be a common theme (are you taught it?) than non-muslims should go away and educate themselves about Islam. How about Islam doing a bit of outreach for a change and explaining things in terms we understand?

x-posts, scary.
Just explain please.

Of course, the MAIN thing that the Christian and Muslim God have in common is the whole not really existing thing....

Oh, you want me to give you the inner workings of people who I do not know, am from a different cultural background to and have never met. [Hmm]

This is just getting silly. It's like asking a man why other men thinking rape and child abuse are ok.

Purits - I don't have to explain anything to someone as rude as you.

freedom of expression yes but something that is so obviously said to incite racial hatred no. If he wants to burn a quran he dousnt need to tell the world about it or encourage others to do so.

You are Muslim, I am not. I would presume that you would know why some think the Hudd punishments are acceptable; and where it is mandated that carrying out a Fatwah overrides the rule of law. I'm asking you to give an insight into things I cannot get my head around and would like to try to understand. I'd respect you far more if you just said you didn't know, rather than your comment.

This is why people can't get a handle on Islam and wind up misunderstanding it, because there is no answer. No-one can give an authoritative statement as this is doctrine and that it is it...as doctrine seems to change according to whom you are speaking. This is why there is misunderstanding of and distrust about Islam.

actually i dont agree that the christian god (if you want to explain it like that) is a trinity at all. These are just ways of explaining how god reaches people and has been created as a concept by mortals. there is no word from god in christianity the bible is not a message from god but stories gathered by the disciples.

jesus asked that he was not referred to as the son of god, or that people call him god at all and still christians do. if christianity has got that much wrong what else is there? id like access to the vaticans archives for sure.

Scaryteacher - Your respect is not a carrot dangling in front of me and you expecting me to know things such as 'why don't the Iranians overthrow their regime?' are so obviously ludicrous that a hmm, is a pretty polite response considering.

Different people think differently is such an obvious statement of fact, yet when it's attached to Muslims, it's a cause for distrust. Why?

Well put scaryteacher.

GAG, since when was asking someone to explain something rude?

Excellent. I've now worked out Rowan Williams posting name. Can we have a Mumsnet webchat with you some time Rowan er Nordic?

I was more interested in 'You are Muslim, I am not. I would presume that you would know why some think the Hudd punishments are acceptable; and where it is mandated that carrying out a Fatwah overrides the rule of law. I'm asking you to give an insight into things I cannot get my head around' rather than Iran.

If you don't know - say so, it would be more honest perhaps.

Nordic Princess, you may not consider the Christian God to have a triune nature, but most Christians do, and affirm it in the Nicene Creed every week. Why has Christianity 'got it wrong'? It is Christianity after all - based on Christ as the son of God. I think there is word from God in the Bible - Luke 3: 21-22

You could equally argue there is no word from God in the Qu'ran, just what Muhammed thought.

NordicPrincess - Which heresy do you subscribe to? webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heresies.html

You sound quite Arianist to me.

'Course, Christianity and Islam are both essentially Jewish heresies that itself nicked half it's ideas from Zoroastrianism.

So Goth, you are saying that Christians are not being murdered, tortured or put into financial ruin in Islamic countries? And you know the minute goings on in all these countries do you and ave evidence to back that up?

No, you don't but I have plenty of evidence.

Oh and Islams perception of who and what God is is not the same as Christians. They cannot believe the same thing. They say the bible is a holy book and then say the things written in it are lies. Contradictory or what?

But frankly I couldn't care less about that and am shocked and dismayed that you really think these brutalities are not going on.