to be sick of the way some people react to 'freedom of expression'

[NotSoScary]

Before I continue, just want to clarify that I myself am a Muslim.

Im just so sick of all the attacks on Islam but Im even more sick of the reactions these cause. Examples include the Satanic Versus, the Prophets cartoon and more recently 'burn a koran day'. I mean what is the bleeding point in burning flags and protesting when these things happen? I get it, everyone has a right to express themselves and if u dont like Islam or dont agree with it, fine, express away. All I care about is being able to practise my faith and respecting all others, I truly believe in live and let live.

The reactions we are getting right now to burn a koran day is just so over the top, no one would even know about it if people just ignored it. The ignorant fool that came up with the day has never even read the koran so if u really want to do something about it, why not challenge him to a debate?

Sorry, I dont really know what Im trying to say, just needed to rant. Im just so tired of all the negative press on Islam all the time and cant help but think if it wernt for OTT reactions, it wouldnt be there. We're not all the same.

In my defence the Scousers I've encountered have normally been on the ras in Plymouth, and they can be alarming.

Just supposing, for instance, that a group of people who had been abused by Catholic priests and the abuse subsequently hushed up, decided to stage a Bible-burning protest. Would the Pope call for action to be taken against them, to the point of assaulting or threatening to kill them? If they were to recieve death threats from 'radical' Catholics, would the Government and the media tell them to cancel their protest or any violent consequences would be their own faults? Would they be condemned in the media as racists or bigots?

Good example, and the answer is of course, no; people would have sympathy because of the abuse.

I agree OP Islam does seem to encourage extremism. The Koran hasn't had any reform or reinterpretation and so remains a source of affirmation that violence, hell and damnation are the way forward. Perhaps it's because cultures that surround Islam are also a little less civilised than the West, much more obvious misogyny.

Silence from Islamic leaders, again, makes Islam and damned easy target for anyone. When are these people going to step up?

Just look at what happened in Holland for a drawing....

Shouldn't have used "scouser" should I? Far more scary than your average muslim. I'm originally from an area not far from Liverpool and some of my male friends used to have lots of trouble getting car insurance and the like because insurers wouldn't trust scousers. I shit you not.

NOt all scousers, of course

SGB, that's sheds a different light on it when you put it like that. I'm just trying to say that people should be aware of the power balances involved here. Let's be clear about who has the power, and it's not the muslims.

Not in the UK and USA maybe, but elsewhere I would assert that Muslims do have the power.

If the situation was as SGB has suggested, then would you have this happening?

'World leaders had encouraged Mr Obama to intervene. Asif Ali Zardari, the Pakistani president, condemned the plan as ?despicable?. Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, the president of Indonesia, the world?s most populous Muslim nation, said it would damage attempts to reconcile Muslims and the West.

Protesters in Pakistan, burned the Stars and Stripes, chanted ?Down with America? and marched with banners carrying English language slogans such as ?If Koran is burned, it would be beginning of destruction of America?.

Protesters also marched in Afghanistan?s Kapisa province. Nouri al-Maliki, Iraq?s prime minister, said the burning ?might be taken as a pretext by the extremists to carry out more killings?. '

There was also this as well...
The imam of Mecca said on Friday that the pastor's threat to burn copies of the Koran was an incitement to ?terrorism?.

"The call to burn copies of our holy book is a form of terrorism and an incitement to terrorism," Saleh bin Humaid said in a sermon marking the Muslim feast of Eid.

With Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah and Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri among the sea of worshippers thronging Islam's holiest city, Mr Humaid said that burning the Koran would be ?aggression against Islam?.

?It is shameful to attribute this act to the freedom of expression,? he said. ?This is an act of aggression against Islam and its followers.?

Posie isn't wrong imo.

The 'racism card' as you put it scaryteacher, is not being 'played' by me, nor would I suggest you were racist because you did not accept or profoundly disagreed with certain tenets of Islam-that's a position I share.

I would certainly agree that it is deeply wearying that some Muslims avoid engaging in reasoned debate about their faith or cultural practice surrounding it by accusing questioners of racism. It is pretty naive though to suggest that racism plays no part in the sometimes virulently anti-Islam sentiments being expressed all around us. And I suspect the EDL leaders have plenty of nous-hence the exploiting of this emotive issue for their own ends.

Bottom line, I'm not generalising. Not all those who have issues with Islam are racist. Not all of them are reasonable or arguing in good faith, either.

I interpret the refusal to debate as an act of fear, I think many Muslims fear that their religion is easily broken, which is reinforced in the Koran, and can therefore not engage in debate...it is seen as an act against the religion.

No matter what the media tells you, the west has far more power than muslims worldwide. Far more.

Posie, muslims are not a lumped-together group. Some Saudi Arabians I've met are exactly as you describe. I've met some weirdo Saudis.
Luckily they do not represent all of Islam, and muslims from other countries love debating and discussing their religion. My muslim friend said the best thing he liked about Britain was "Question Time". Why are these normal muslims not being heard?
I can't tell if it's the muslims' fault or if it's the media's fault for focusing on hook-armed pirates instead.

Posie - You repeatedly show utter ignorance of Islam, despite being corrected many, many times. Debating with you is not unlike debating with a Flat Earther.

More on Orientalism

Very good short film showing the link between Anti Arab & anti Muslim sentiment: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-600397827976179049#

To put it simply, for many people Muslim = Arab, hence much of the language used against Muslims is borne from anti-Arab prejudice. This cartoon illustrates this very well.

SGB those people staging the Qu'ran burning hven't been harmed by Muslims, hav they?

not that bibleburning would be anything other than a publicity stunt.

EdgarAllinPink: OK so it's not a perfect example, but the Koran burners are motivated by grief and outrage at the attack on the Twin Towers which was said to be performed in the name of 'Islam' (though obviously lots and lots of Muslims were appalled by it). Perhaps my hypothetical story would have been better if it had been 'people outraged by the Catholic CHurch's institutionalised acceptance of child abuse' rather than the victims themselves.

ANd TBH I do think that all these nutters calling for extreme violence against AMerica and Americans if one old fart sets light to a book are actually worse in ethical and moral terms than the old fart with the matchbox.

Obviously when I speak of 'Muslims' in the context of fear I am referring to those compelled to burn American flags or those that do use threats of and actual violence to get their point accross, those that are seen to scream, rant and protest. When I talk of the world view of Muslims I am not talking of my friend Tally down the road who doesn't even wear a headscarf, or Mamojam(nn) who does with moderate yet passionate views...

Perhaps the distinction isn't clear, I shall ensure I make it so. You only have to read the many outpourings of threat and violence to see that loud Muslim voices around the world are prepared, without louder condemnation from other Muslims, to stand above in self righteous positions truly believing they will be both justified and supported if they attack people/places in and from the West.

There is no better control than that of the unquestioning fool.

Please enlighten me about which parts you particularly find ignorant G....because just hurling an insult adds little to the debate.

"I agree OP Islam does seem to encourage extremism. The Koran hasn't had any reform or reinterpretation and so remains a source of affirmation that violence, hell and damnation are the way forward. Perhaps it's because cultures that surround Islam are also a little less civilised than the West, much more obvious misogyny."

The above is very ignorant.

Oh perhaps I am mistaken and there are shit loads of Muslims wanting to wage war on hte West, and perhaps I am mistaken that women are stoned to death for being raped in predominantly Muslim countries, and perhaps I am mistaken that Islamic leaders that are peaceful seem to be too quiet when it comes to silencing the extremists.....

Do I really have to recite the parts of the Koran, which is not to be questioned as it is the 'word of God', that promote violence against non Muslims and women?

Ignorant is such a vague insult, it really is quite meaningless.

GAG, you complain that we are 'ignorant' but when we ask you to explain then nothing is forthcoming. You can't have it both ways.

The links you gave earlier were rubbish BTW. For example, the proposition that America portrays all Arabs/Muslims as baddies: they portray the British as baddies, too (petty example: in the Lion King, Mufasa=American, Scar=british.). In fact they portray anybody non-American as baddies. It's nothing especially anti Arab/Muslim, it's just what they do.

Right, then I'll have to go to the bother of putting them back into context.

Posie, you are utterly set in your views. You don't like Islam, you don't like Muslims (expect some nice friends you've just started mentioning). You will start many more threads like this. Muslims will post and talk to you. You will not listen. On and on and Ariston.

Ignorant is not vague. It means someone who is lacking in knowledge.

PP/GAG - How about this for a compromise position - "Islam is being used as the preferred method of control by several unpleasant regimes."

Senua - There is a book called Reel Bad Arabs by Jack Shaheen. He reviewed every Hollywood film that featured Arabs.

Out of over 900 films, 50 were balanced, a dozen were positive link

TCNY Most of the really unpleasant regimes in Muslim majority countries are actually avowedly secular.

But of course, religion like anything else can be twisted for many purposes. Who would ever think that the Communist Manifesto could ever inspire The Killing Fields?