to be sick of the way some people react to 'freedom of expression'

[NotSoScary]

Before I continue, just want to clarify that I myself am a Muslim.

Im just so sick of all the attacks on Islam but Im even more sick of the reactions these cause. Examples include the Satanic Versus, the Prophets cartoon and more recently 'burn a koran day'. I mean what is the bleeding point in burning flags and protesting when these things happen? I get it, everyone has a right to express themselves and if u dont like Islam or dont agree with it, fine, express away. All I care about is being able to practise my faith and respecting all others, I truly believe in live and let live.

The reactions we are getting right now to burn a koran day is just so over the top, no one would even know about it if people just ignored it. The ignorant fool that came up with the day has never even read the koran so if u really want to do something about it, why not challenge him to a debate?

Sorry, I dont really know what Im trying to say, just needed to rant. Im just so tired of all the negative press on Islam all the time and cant help but think if it wernt for OTT reactions, it wouldnt be there. We're not all the same.

I completely agree on the most part newwave.

Religion is a community thing, it brings families and friends together (if they want that is...I'm a committed atheist but I suppose that's sort of like a religion in itself!)

I don't think that any religion should impose in any non-believer's life if it is not within the confines of the community it was meant for.

By this I mean that I don't want to pay for the Pope to visit and to cause massive congestion and probably all out 'war' in Glasgow. Which is inevitable. (I love my City but by god/allah some of it's inhabitants are awful!)

I also have a sneaking suspicion that Islam isn't the most violent of religions.(Not arguing with you- just stating my belief!)
When you look at it's roots and where and how it has originated. It is very tranquil and peaceful.

But then most of them probably are.

All in all - if we don't poke our noses into other people's religions and each get on with our own lives without interference then everything will be hunky dory!

(This rose-tinted outlook is probably why I will never be Prime Minister!!)

Notso, this kind of thing makes me so angry for one major reason

THe people who have the power i.e white males, use that old "freedom of expression" chestnut to say or do whatever they like

but

when people from a disenfranchised or minority group i.e feminists, muslims, whoever, protest, then they are told they're stifling freedom of speech

but

if that same minority group wanted to use their same "freedom of speech" rights as the white male group (I'm thinking of a group of muslims organizing a "burn the bible" day) then they get viciously attacked.

It's all so wrong and translates as: only the ones with the power are allowed freedom fo speech, in whatever ugly form it may take

There was a thread about the singer Eminem who wrote a song attacking his wife viciously. She slit her wrists when she heard it and then took him to court for defamation. Eminem and his lawyers went down on her like a ton of bricks. His freedom of speech, to say hateful things, is all important. Her right to protest is non-existant.

I think we're going to see a lot more of this type of thing. It's a vicious circle. Once certain groups of people are allowed no voice or any means of defending their world view, then it gets harder for them to get their world-view accross

So many who haven't heard of the Koran-burning. How have you managed to avoid it? It led every news bulletin on every channel (TV and radio) all day, even pushing Cameron's dad nito second. Bloody stupid, frankly; the man wants publicity, just ignore the twat. I'm sure his god will be ever so pleased with whatever he chooses to do with a fucking book.

That's the thing Heracles. Why do these idiots get so much attention. THat is more fucking suspicious than the Koran-bruning itself.

Well it's pretty obvious, really. They have to whip up a media fervour in order to justify invading Iran

Well the 'Burn a Koran' bloke is hardly someone I would want on my team, as he's a racist rightwing (woman-hating homophobic) knob. I support his right to burn a book that he has bought and paid for, but think he's a knob for doing so. I support his right to buy a Koran and wipe his bum on it, same as I would support anyone's right to go into a shop, purchase a mass-produced edition of a 'special' book and burn it, shit on it or cook it in a casserole. In themselves, these are silly, childish and pointless behaviours but they do constitute freedom of expression. If he were advocating (or doing) the act of going into a mosque or a Muslim's home and siezing their Korans to destroy, that would be a different matter.

OH just to add, I would support the right of Muslims to trash Bibles or Union Jacks or American flags too, as long as they have bought and paid for those items and not snatched them out of someone else's hands to destroy. I also support the right of Muslims or other groups to protest against the war (and the right of any group to make a peaceful protest that doesn;t involve physical attack or the destruction of property).

"I don't think that any religion should impose in any non-believer's life if it is not within the confines of the community it was meant for."

But you do think that it should impose in non-believers' lives within those communities? What does "meant for" mean, exactly? That it's OK to persecute people for religious reasons within specified postcodes? That people born into religious communities have fewer rights to dissent than those who are born elsewhere? Could you expand?

You know when you see footage of groups of men burning, say, the American flag? Where do they get the flags from? Who's selling these flags?

Yes, it's a rhetorical question; it just happens to neatly segue into the points made above this post.

'Where do they get the flags from? Who's selling these flags?'

Made In China dontchaknow

Nice post SGB, I agree with all of it. The only problem is the media and majority rule (white males) don't agree with you.

There is an increasing atmosphere of "you are allowed freedom of expression as long as it fits in with the anti-feminist, anti-muslim, anti-church status quo". Anyone who doesn't agree with our "liberal" views can you shut the fuck up, please.

I'd not heard of this 'burn the Koran' day until I read this, but here is what I think.

Religion doesn't have an awful lot to do with it. It's culture and education.

Those people that live (or come from) predominantly Muslim countries have a different way of reacting to things like this. They are not taught to accept any other opinion than their own. I should know - I live in Turkey - and one of the 'chants' they are taught in primary school is 'I am a Turk, I'm proud to be a Turk, the only friend of a Turk is a Turk'.

So let's say that a 5 year old from a predominantly Muslim country organises a 'burn the bible' day, the 5 year olds from the Western countries (predominantly Christian) would tend to just laugh (because they are TAUGHT to turn the other cheek). However, when a 5 year old from a predominantly Christian country organises a 'burn the Koran' day, the 5 year olds from the Muslim countries will react by punching the Christian's faces, and/or screaming a lot and throwing a tantrum. The Christians find this funny, and do it all the more just to provoke the reaction.

I think this 'burn the Koran' day has been organised for exactly the reasons above. Shame the adults reacting can't behave like adults.

It's really not to do with religion - it's to do with culture and education, as I said before. It's just that religion is the lever that these 'children' use to bate each other because they know they'll get a reaction.

Instead of getting your knickers in a twist about a smoking book, "express yourself" and campaign LOUDLY for muslim women who are repressed in the East or make a stand against these moronic bombers in pakistan when the people on the ground have enough shit to be dealing with.

This, IMO, is the problem - too much "boo hoo we're being treated like medieval idiots" and then er... turning a blind eye to medieval idiots.

QED - 2 weeks ago on the BBC breakfast - lots and lots and lots of images of flooded Pakistan. 1 week ago, BBC breakfast coverage of "outraged" pakistani muslims in east london up in arms about cricket fixing.

Pull the needle out of thine own eye and all that jazz!

I think it is the inevitable Islamic over reaction that really irritates me; burning copies of the Satanic Verses was plain daft, but to then pronounce a Fatwa on Salman Rushdie was stifling his freedom of speech and threatening his right to life. I went a bought a copy because of that.

The cartoons of Mohammed are another case in point. Christians coped with the Life of Brian being issued; Christianity is regularly derided and mocked (Dawkins et al), and yet some cartoons are published of a man who lived in the 7th Century (long dead and thus will not be offended or affected by this) and you have people parading through the streets calling for beheadings! Mohammed wasn't divine, he was a man, so why the fuss? I was appalled when a Muslim tried to murder the cartoonist last year, after so many years. Is that what you count as freedom of expression - trying to kill people because they've drawn a picture?

The USA did not mind the Irish terrorists, in fact they supported the troubles, it was only when the Islamic nutters flew plains in to towers and they had a taste of terror that they cried no fair and started bombing left right and center themself, and if they really cared about liberating people they would be out in the Congo not fighting for oil.

Oh yes, I noticed how the Western powers ignored Rwanda. They're just Africans. No oil. Who cares about the genocide.

And if the US really cared about women they'd invade Saudi for the oil, Saudi has oil. Lots of it. And Saudi women are the most oppressed women in the entire world. They're not allowed to leave the house without escorts and shit. So you have to ask yourself why the US is bezzie mates with them.

Indeed, one of the groups that suffered the highest rate of casualties on 9/11 was Irish Americans: they're the backbone of the NYPD and the NYFD, whose bravery and commitment cannot be underestimated.

Ironically, however, the main funding for the IRA came through Noraid, which was made up almost exclusively of east coast Irish Americans (Boston and New York, mostly). Even after the Good Friday agreement, funding continued for the various revanchist splinter groups who continued violence. Some of the donors may genuinely have thought they were giving money to help the widows and orphans of the volunteers, but it's likely most knew that was just a pretext.

It is said that the penny dropped on 9/12, and the funding stopped before the dust had cleared.

I don't really know whay you are trying to say.

On the one hand you say the "burn a flag day" should have been ignored but surely the fact that it has been almost universally condemned is actually a postive and indicates tolerance to those that practice any religion in a peaceful, non confrontational manner.

Why didn't the penny drop that invading Iraq, and fabricating reasons for war, would result in increased hatred and potential terrorism towards the west?

Are the men in power seriously that thick? We need some women up there with some real power (not tokens like COndoleza ) pronto.

Burn a flag day should have been ignored.

People have the right to burn a flag, nobody is stopping them, that is freedom of speech. But you don't have to give them loads of attention. Nobody gives feminists the time of day, for example, because nobody is interested.

Your right to swing your fists stops when they hit me in the face.

Not seen any evidence of 'white males' oppressing freedom of speech in this country. If anything, minority groups get more space to express themselves than the masses BECAUSE they are minority groups.

Think your foil hat needs adjustment Sakura.

i'm all in favour of freedom of speech. though i think the media should exercise the freedom to ignore that particular bunch of nutcases that are going to do the inflammatory (hahah) Quran burning.

In answer to the OP - I imagine being a moderate muslim in the west is a pretty frustrating place to be right now.

Unfortunately muslim radicals are waging holy war on the west via propoganda and terrorism. Its unlikely the image of Islam will improve till the war stops.

If you want to drown the radicals out, you need to shout louder.

"Think your foil hat needs adjustment Sakura"

People have deleted my posts on mumsnet before, not because they were abusive, but because they quoted a respected radical feminist that didn't tow their party line, a patriarchal party line which is being taught at universities. Radical feminism is not taught or addressed in academia.

I would say radical feminist's voice is the minority of the minorities.

And yet when it came to invading Iraq, millions of people went to protest the white male's imperalism and they were ignored. The white males went ahead and did what they wanted anyway.

I agree Edgar
Some total twat in the back arse of America chooses to make a particularly wanky and provocative gesture and the media lap it up.

Wouldn't it be just brilliant though if the twats people who are just looking for a fight just went [meh] instead of planning ptotests and attacks etc etc. They should have a 'show your arse to mad preacher bloke' day by way of right of reply.