to think that Muslim Girls should not be wearing headscarves....

[PosieParker]

at primary school?

here

Well said, Bright.

I note that boys may wear 3/4 length trousers - presumably knee length shorts? If so, can someone explain why, in addition to the hijab (no head coverings for the boys) that the girls should wear a skirt plus leggings?

Well it was a cultural thing to cover one's head in the UK when in public up until fairly recently - for men and women. A part of this may have been due to the British climate and umbrellas not having been invented yet, of course - but if you didn't cover your head people disapproved or thought you were wierd. They didn't arrest you and beat you up.
And I do think it;s important to keep on questioning and criticisng superstitious misogyny - one of many reasons to despise Blair and co is their indulgence of and privileging all those fuckwits who want to restrict and control other people's behaviour in the name of their imaginary friend.
Though I would like to hear more from Muslim women who, having read the Koran, have decided that they don't need to wear hijab, and that the insistence-to-the-point-of-violence on making women cover themselves is about men's inadequacy - but it appears to be a little risky for a Muslim woman to say such things. Like, she might get executed.
Yes there is some cultural pressure on women in the developed world to display themselves more but (as yet) women don't get arrested, beaten up or executed with the sanction of the authorities for not wearing tight enough jeggings or low-cut enough tops. And if a Muslim woman has her scarf ripped off her by a racist fuckwit, the law and the majority of people in the UK are on her side and want to see her assailant punished.

FFS leave them alone, if their parents choose to send them it is their choice and uniform is uniform at the end of the day. If you don't like it, dont send your kids there!!

SGB, there are many, many Muslim women who don't wear hijab in Muslim majority countries.

Oh, and Fatima Mernissi is still alive. Look her up.

oh for goodness sake. The hijab was part of society long before islam was "born". The fashion of dressing in this way stems from the fact that women in this part of the world wore it when islam was born and so the trend has continued.

Without being blaspomous (sp) every religion will in certain ways be affected by the style of the culture that was around at that time, women were bought and sold back then and it was a very dangerous place to be.

why would you cover up in such hot weather conditions such as saudi? well if you went around dressed in hot pants and a bikini youd die of skin cancer, dehydration etc...The hijab as the turban (wrong word) that tribal middle eastern men wear is there to protect them from exposure to long periods under the sun and strong winds in the desert etc...

Islamic dress has taken on fashionably since then and now many muslim women wear it as asymbol and a form of identifying themselves as being part of muslim society. The niqab has absolutly no place in islamic dress, it came about post islam as part of the regime of much more extreme islam.

Did you know that in saudi they have added little foot notes in the qurans? they have added lines that comply with thier version of extremist islam, if i or you were to do this wed be stoned to death.

No its not Islamaphobic to question aspects of Islam at all or anything else. However, when no other religion ever gets mentioned then I start to see a negative trend. Its my right to call it as I see it just as you have the right to continually single out one religion like nobody else's shit stinks.

The 'PC gawn maaad' brigade love to talk about freedom of speech when its aimed at criticizing everyone but themselves and people like them.

I can see through it when someone pretends to be concerned about something or a group of people but really the aim is to big up their superiority complex. Before 9/11 nobody gave a shit about what Muslim women wore but for the last few years there seems to be a moral panic about everything Muslims do or don't do.

Where are the threads about Mormon women being made to be multiple wives to one man? Where are the threads about some Hindu women being ostracized if they dare to marry out of their cast? Where are the threads about orthodox Jewish women having to shave their head and wear wigs? Where are the threads about CofE having to say they will 'obey' their husbands when they marry them. The threads on British culture increasingly sexualising girls? Islam/Muslims is the only religion/culture that appears to have any faults.

I don't even believe in religion but I don't want to see the same group criticized all of the time like the rest of us are so great.

We're discussing Islam and the requirement by a primary school for young girls to wear a hijab - is that PC gone mad in your book . However, if there is another religion which requires girls to wear the same dress code as the school in question, or be treated so differently to their male peers, then please let me know and I'll happily tear into it.

BlackBess that sounds a nightmare, but at least it isn't permanant. Thanks for responding btw. :)

Hold your horses - isn't this thread entitled 'to think that Muslim Girls should not be wearing headscarves....' therefore of course we are discussing Islam and not any of the other numerous instances where women are treated like third class citizens. By all means start a thread about Christianity and the rest of them if you like, and I'm sure we'll follow you right in there, but that doesn't negate the perfectly reasonable thread which has been started here.

I can understand where you are coming from, as I've also noticed the increasing number of young (as in P1) girls at ds' (non denominational) school who are wearing hijabs.

I had always thought it was just post puberty that it was needed. I know that "modesty" is important in Islam - but surely the need to protect from inappropriate attention is not relevant to a 5 year old?

It's the same with the fasting during Ramadan: I thought children didn't need to fast, yet it seems that many of the children at ds' primary school are fasting.

Capricorn76: I criticize and condemn all superstitions on a regular basis. The main reason for criticizing extremist Islamic dress codes somewhat more than the misogyny of other supersitions just now is that the Islamic extremist woman-haters are reinforcing their bullshit mythology with so much state-sanctioned, state-approved (and iman-endorsed) violence against women for breaching these dress codes.

children in christianity dont need to give things up for lent but many still do?

As I had understood it, the reason that children don't need to/shouldn't fast - at least, not for the full sunrise to sunset - was on health grounds as it is not appropraite for an active child to go that long without food. In the same way, pregnant women or other people who are ill, or travellers, don't need to fast.

Islam is not unreasonable in that respect.

Posie - DH and I know a lot of people at this school, including the gentleman whose idea it was to set it up. They receive no funding whatsoever from the Government or Bristol City Council.

All what they have done is by fund raising, fee paying and the sheer determination of the staff, parents and pupils. All they want is a school that offers the National curriculum but with Arabic, Qur'an and lessons in Islam and I tihnk its really unfair for you to link them in a thread such as this. And, AFAIK, the last Ofsted report I read from this school was Oustanding - 98% IRRC and I know that they are currently improving the facilities even more

The hejab is NOT compulsory and in any case, what people keep forgetting, is that young children DO NOT HAVE TO WEAR HEJAB! A lot of the time the littlies are wearing them just to copy mummy, in the same way that I've seen little girls who are carbon copies of their mums while walking down the street - earrings, nail polish etc

Please - get a life!

Perhaps Islam is an easy target, I don't think there's a Mormon who has blown anyone up or are readily identified by their dress and many religions don't wish death to non believers or that a woman rip a baby from her womb to reach heaven on judgement day.

And maybe many people weren't talking about Muslims prior to 911 but I taught in a school in Bradford in the early 90's and can tell you I was certainly thinking about forced marriage, many Muslim girls weren't so identifiable then anyway because the political climate wasn't one in which they wanted to be singled out, I certainly did not notice any little girls dressing modestly for her maker.

And finally Islam does not, and some Muslims do not try, to fit into British society readily or as readily as other religions. I remember a poster talking about her Indian parents coming here and wanting to fit in without losing their culture, seems to me people are more likely to exaggerate their culture to keep it nowadays.

Ah. So now we have it. It's not about little girls wearing headscarves.

It's about how eeeeevvvvvvviiiillll Muslims are. Again.

AIBU by stealth and a tedious one at that.

Can I tentatively add to this that I think it's inappropriate for little girls with Orthodox Jewish parents to be forced to walk around in hot black woolly tights in the summer, thereby probably getting thrush.

Religious dress outside a place of worship should take climate and practicability into account IMO.

That's a shame. It had the makings of an interesting debate.

Goth, I was responding to a question or do you start a conversation and refuse to move on?

If the local independent Catholic school required girls to cover their heads I would start the same sort of thread. As it happens my sister was looking for a private school for her son and stumbled upon the site. I don't think there's any place to further insulate people within their own religion and small view of life, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or whatever.

Posie you really really need to read more about Islam instead of spouting tabloid ideas of what Islam is about

Islam is flexible and a lot of Muslims are flexible with it. What happens is the odd one or two Muslims that are not flexible, are the ones whose stories get reported in the press. Yes, you will get 1st generation Muslims from other countries who hold on to their ways but it is only because its their way of coping over here - I mean lets face it, a number of Brits cannnot even go abroad for a week without wanting a 'fry up' or certain types of beer!

So, lets get a few things straight here shall we:

1. We do not mind Xmas decorations and Xmas celebrations. We do not faint dead away if we receive a Xmas card and in some cases, we send them - I have a non Muslim family and so I respect their religion in the way they respect mine

1. We do not mind Easter celebrations or hot cross buns - we actually eat them! Not because of what they symbolise, but because they taste nice

1. We DO fit around with British lifestyle. A lot of my friends book Eid off work and if they are not able to have it off due to business reasons, then so be it - they recognise it is not a holiday here as Xmas or Easter is. They number of us fasting Ramadan at work is very high because its just not possible to take a whole month off

1. We are flexible with praying in work - you can pray two prayers together so that you are not constantly away from your desk praying - and before you bleat about taking time off work to pray, the time is made up by either coming in early, staying later or praying during lunch breaks. A friend of Dh's is a surgeon and he cannot pray at all some days due to operations - he makes them up when he gets home

1. We fast Ramadan and get on with it. I have fasted in an open plan office with people constantly eating around me (and yes, they are eating sausage rolls sometimes!!). Its hard work but I don't bleat about it and understand that I am fasting in a non Muslim country

1. We have adapted to the British financial system with Shariah approved banking products that meet our needs but also fit with the financial services requirements

1. We do not demand prayer rooms or wash facilities everywhere we go - we make the most of what we have - a friend of mine will pray in changing rooms for example

Seriously, you need to learn more about Islam before you make such sweeping generalisations!!!

Goth....I assume you think little girls should cover in fear of men?

Oh good grief!! We don't think little girls should cover in fear of men! Have you not read anything that the Muslims on here have been saying - a lot of it is a choice thing and it in no way indicates that the children are being seen as sexual beings. It is merely copying Mummy and getting them used to idea of hejab for when they are older and they can choose to wear it or not