"And then on the 3rd night he just slept through" <hollow laugh> <rocks> <weeps>

[YunoYurbubson]

It would seem that everyone else in the world had to do sleep training for three, or at the most four, nights and then their children miraculously slept through for twelvty-ten hours every night thereafter and there were rainbows and cherubs and fluffy bunnies and everyone lived happily every after. I KNOW this is true because I have been trawling the MN archives.

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG???

I am not even a sleep training type but have had to do something for fear of dying from lack of sleep.

Details:
Ds is 2 1/2. He spends every night lolling about on the boob sort of feeding and dozing and occasionally I manage to roll him off me and I grab 20 minutes sleep before he realises and howls in indignation and we begin with the rolling, lolling, dozing, feeding thing again.

History:
We have tried various sleep solutions before (NCSS, Baby Whisperer and another one, I forget which) but have unfortunately not had the balls to see them through, thus neatly teaching ds that if things are not going his way he just has to keep screaming at us and eventually we will capitulate.

And Now:
We've done 8 nights.
The rule is 'No Milk Until Morning'.
If he wakes up I fix whatever has woken him (thirsty / sore feet / leaked nappy etc) and settle him back into bed.
I give him cuddles if he is sad.
He clings pitifully to my neck for hours, erupting into hysterical sobbing if I gently encourage him back into his bed.
He is still begging for milk every night.

If I ever manage to get him camly in to his bed and lying down he dozes off pretty easily, it's getting him there that is so painful.

Last night I got about 2 hours sleep total, and those were on the floor of his bedroom.

Do I continue with this?
Do I do things differently?
What do I do?
SERIOUSLY, what do I do?

See, yes, as a couple of posters have noted, the breastfeeding may be helpful for his eczema. I'm not planning to knock it on the head completely just yet.

Brightlight - no, my 4yo doesn't sleep through either. I'm not looking for 12 hours straight of comatose child. I don't mind a bit if they come in for a cuddle at some point during the night, or need help with a bad dream or an unruly duvet. I am just looking to reach a situation where ds is getting a reasonable amount of sleep.

Last night he slept from 8.00 to 11.30, then midnight to 3, and then we didn't really get any sleep after that. An improvement I think.

I know this wasn't really the right place to post this but I am glad I did. A couple of people mentioned flaming but I don't feel remotely flamed. I have got loads of varying advice and some blunt thoughts and masses of encouragement and sympathy. The only jarring posts came from people who hadn't really read the thread. A win, I think.

Too much to answer individually. I am now going to sit and read the whole thread through again. Thank you everyone who has taken the time to give me your thoughts.

Skimmed the thread, and have come to the conclusion that everyone does it differently and there is no right way.

The extended bf/no cc would not be for me, I gave up and did cc when DS was almost 3yo but if it is not right for you then I am not going to berate you for it.

If you are sleeping on the floor then get a blow up mattress and a duvet that you can slide under his bed, so that at least the couple of hours you are getting are restful

Good luck

oh people, don;t beat yourself up about breastfeeidng and eczema. I would have thought that a 2 yr old is getting such a varied diet with many dairy products anyway that continuing to breastfeed isn't going to make any difference.

good luck with it all remember: this too will pass!

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread - but do you have an OH? My advice would be if so, let him deal with the WHOLE night.
My DS only messes me around. A few nights with DH getting up to him, settling him etc, and the habits are broken.
I give DS his last night feed and then that's it. The milk bar is closed. He does not need a drink of milk in the night. He can have water from DH if he's thirsty.
I am mean Mummy.

Well for the last couple of nights he has ended up in my bed, but still no milk until morning.

Last night he slept from 8.45 - midnight (then 5 min cuddle, drink of water, back to sleep)
Then slept from just gone midnight to 4am (starting to get light, much, much wailing for milk, we had cuddles and eventually he fell asleep for about 20 minutes snuggled in to me)
Then woke up just after 5 and attacked me until he got milk at about 5.40.

That's an improvement, right? Can anyone tell me that's getting better? I know it's not perfect, but it's progress, right?

Odysseus - no, have mentioned a few times it is just me. I am also sticking to it though and after the milk bar closes it is just water. I just do it by myself is all.

LeQueen, you may be right, but I genuinely don't see a quick fix out of this. If I am brisk and pop him straight back in to bed he screams himself into a frenzy. This is a child who until recently would scream himself to the point of projectile vomit. That has not happened for a month or so now but I am still wary. I bet you would be too. If I cuddle and coax he eventually gets in to bed and goes to sleep.

Thanks SanFairy.

My DH didn't "sleep through" until 7 years old. Yes, not 7 months, 7 years. Co slept until she was 3, which was all fine and lovely. Then went away for a long weekend leaving her with my cousin, and thought that was a good time to get her sleeping in her own bed... but she was just not used to soothing herself back to sleep if she roused in the night so ended up getting up to her twice a night for the next 4 years, until DH2 said "no more!". Had to go for a tough love approach... worked really quickly. Gave her a few props - night light, new build a bear etc and LOTS of bribery. So I think the key with your 2 1/2 year old is being able to soothe himself back to sleep. My DS slept through from 8 months - moved him to his own cot at 4 months so he learned the self soothing thing much more easily!!!

By the way, I gave this a really annoying title, didn't I? I bet it is bugging people in Active Convos. Sorry.

I didn't think it would get 100+ posts.

slowly slowly catchee monkey, yes?

so in your mind now you can say, well look he can go 8.45 til 4 am so no milk inside those hours, as a start

This is a totally non-medically trained opinion but it might be worth seeing a naturopathic doctor and checking out allergies if you haven't already for the eczema? I think dairy products are a common cause of this (not human breastmilk but cows milk, cheese, butter etc).

And you have my sympathy, I have similar sleep problems with my 18mo and feeding. I also won't leave him to cry - it's just against my instinct and I think once I stop listening / following those then I'm really in trouble. I think about when he's older and this has passed and think I won't remember the sleepless bit so much but would probably always feel guilty if I remembered leaving him to cry. I'm not saying this is wrong for everyone, but just the way I feel.

Absolutely no advice to give (sorry!)

We have different issues with sleep, or lack of it in our house, but dd1 (4.6), dd2 (3.4) and ds (9 weeks) all spend a lot of the night waking up and bed-hopping!

We can't do the leaving to cry thing, and couldn't get rapid return to work at all.We have got to a stage now where we all get as much sleep as we can, well not with ds, but he is only 9 weeks.

I'm sorry that this seems like a completely irrelevant post!I tend not to talk to people about our nights with anyone apart from a friend whose dcs are equally bad sleepers (we console ourselves with rocket fuel strength coffee). I think it is especially hard if there are issues such as eczema or asthma keeping los awake. Do you give the antihistamines regularly? We were told to give Piriton morning and night, as it has an accumulative effect and works more effectively as it builds up in the system.

By my reckoning that was about 8hours, albeit with breaks so I would say definitely an improvement. Well done to you both.

You have to do what suits you and your parenting style. I sometimes think it must be really confusing for DC whose parents have been the co-sleep feed on demand types, then are nagged into doing CC from friends/MIL (or completely understandable sheer desperation).

Definitely an improvement. Quite a big one, I'd say.

Not able to offer any advice really (both of mine were pretty good sleepers) but I just wanted to give you a huge verbal pat on the back. I can't begin to imagine how tired you must be, but you're doing your best, on your own, with another child, and you've even kept your sense of humour. You're incredible.

Hope it all continues to move in the right direction for you

That is a BIG improvement, well done.

It still isn't enough sleep for him though, he must need at least ten hours. I think you need to bear in mind the importance of sleep FOR HIM when you are struggling along. And give him as little attention as possible in the night.

Sorry have only skim read this thread, but is the problem that he doesn't like you leaving him? I assume you feed him to sleep? DS was the same, but when I got pregnant I used to have to cut short his bedtime / through the night feeds andjust say "I am desperate for the toilet so I am going". I was amazed at how well he took it, and mot of the time he'd be asleep when I got back. Your son is 2 1/2. Tell him you are tired (or lie and say you need a wee) - you might be surprised!

Feel free to virtually slap me if that was an incredibly unhelpful post :o

Oh, well done Yuno. I think you've now done the hardest part and things will improve from here on.

Don't forget where you're starting from, so that you can really appreciate the progress you make! I find the true depths of sleep deprivation are oddly hard to remember when your child starts waking just once or twice in the night, and you somehow feel almost more hard-done-by because they are not sleeping right through!

How's it going, Yuno?

Hope you're getting more sleep

It does sound as though it's an improvement to me, hope it's continued that way.

By 2.5 I guess they are more persisent. The 3rd night thing probably only applies to babies??? I have 2.5 year old and 16 week old and considering it with my youngest ...

I'd stop the breastfeed at bedtime, he can still have it but separate if from the bedtime routine. I used to breastfeed DD to sleep and we moved the feed to after dinner and before bath.
Keep a cup in the bed for if he gets thirsty
Do the same thing every night, and be absolute, timing, what you say, music, you can change the book if you have them of course. .
When he wakes, have the same responses for whatever issue it is, keep it short and simple, don't engage for too long
Once he 'gets' the routine, he'll welcome the routine and will start to respond, and may even ask for some elements. I never thought I'd hear my daughter say 'stairs' once we have finished downstairs, but she does.
At this age, they need you to be in control for them, as hard as it is and they protest and push the boundaries, part of it is their frustration. They are tired but don't know how to deal with it. You have to do it. Good luck.

Just to add in that as we all know babies & kids are all different. My dd was a good sleeper & my son has not been. Both have been bf (to sleep sometimes, not sometimes). Some just find it harder to sleep than others imo.
My dd slept through (well until 5am or so) from less than 6 weeks & my ds is 18 months & still waking to be fed throughout the night. I can honestly say the difference has been in them not me or what I have done.

Any road up, I have come to my end with the night feeds & the resultant co sleeping so am bracing myself for some similar nights to you op. My ds will go to sleep after a feed, still wide awake at bedtime but in the night will not. So he has learnt to self settle but will not do it in the night. What's that all about?

Well done op, remain strong, ignore any finger wagging & feel supported by those who are more kindly!

GUESS WHAT GUESS WHAT GUESS WHAT?????

I theeeeenk we may have slightly cracked it. Ds has slept through 4 nights in a row. I'm not counting any chickens, but... well, c'mon! 4 nights of 9+ hrs sleep.

Even if it doesn't last, I am bloody well enjoying it for now.

And the funniest bit is the way he rockets into my bedroom at first light like a boobie seeking missile, both fists clenches triumphantly above his head, yelling "MILKIEEEESSSSSS!!" and I swear he leaps from the door to latching on without touching the floor.

Woweeeee well done Yuno.

How many nights did that take altogether then?

Love the boob seeking missile in the morning!