"And then on the 3rd night he just slept through" <hollow laugh> <rocks> <weeps>

[YunoYurbubson]

It would seem that everyone else in the world had to do sleep training for three, or at the most four, nights and then their children miraculously slept through for twelvty-ten hours every night thereafter and there were rainbows and cherubs and fluffy bunnies and everyone lived happily every after. I KNOW this is true because I have been trawling the MN archives.

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG???

I am not even a sleep training type but have had to do something for fear of dying from lack of sleep.

Details:
Ds is 2 1/2. He spends every night lolling about on the boob sort of feeding and dozing and occasionally I manage to roll him off me and I grab 20 minutes sleep before he realises and howls in indignation and we begin with the rolling, lolling, dozing, feeding thing again.

History:
We have tried various sleep solutions before (NCSS, Baby Whisperer and another one, I forget which) but have unfortunately not had the balls to see them through, thus neatly teaching ds that if things are not going his way he just has to keep screaming at us and eventually we will capitulate.

And Now:
We've done 8 nights.
The rule is 'No Milk Until Morning'.
If he wakes up I fix whatever has woken him (thirsty / sore feet / leaked nappy etc) and settle him back into bed.
I give him cuddles if he is sad.
He clings pitifully to my neck for hours, erupting into hysterical sobbing if I gently encourage him back into his bed.
He is still begging for milk every night.

If I ever manage to get him camly in to his bed and lying down he dozes off pretty easily, it's getting him there that is so painful.

Last night I got about 2 hours sleep total, and those were on the floor of his bedroom.

Do I continue with this?
Do I do things differently?
What do I do?
SERIOUSLY, what do I do?

I am of the opinion that if you have to "break" them in in some way, or out of something, its best done early, but not too early.

My son did a day a week at nursery from 1 year old. At about 15 months he went through a short period of separation anxiety, where he'd cry when I left. It made me feel a right heel because I dont actually work and whilst I was studying and needed that 6 hour contiuous slot to do assignments etc, I still felt a right cow because it wasn't strictly necessary.

But he got through it in a few weeks and all was fine.

When he was 2 and a half he started preschool. There, I got to witness some children who hadn't gone through that separation thing earlier - and its a whole lot uglier at that age, as they can talk and guilt trip and I think they probably cry longer, and are less easily distracted, etc etc...

Same with sleep training, probably.

Its no help to the OP, I know. And none of it is ideal in that ideally they'd never have to endure anything to vex them or blight their day (or night)...

But anyway. Just musing really. Hope things work out for you, OP.

Don't let him drift off while bf. Create a clearer bedtime routine that does not rely on you spending a long period of time with him.

Bath, pyjamas, snack, story, bed and sleep.

Huge sympathies - both my dds weren't good sleepers and they have both grown out of it (so there is hope).
I agree with whoever said to get someone else to do night time for a bit - in my case dh did cc with both girls because I was just so bloody knackered I'd give in and let them feed/get into bed plus he was a lot stronger and firmer than me and didn't smell of milk!
It didn't take 3 nights - more like a week before they had about 6 hours but that was bliss enough! They just kept improving although we have the occasional blip when they are ill or clocks change.
Does your ds have a nap during the day still? If yes try and make that earlier in the day and then take him out for an afternoon of fresh air and exercise (that always knocks my two out)..
hth

Might be genuinely hungry. It took DD two weeks to get over the hunger pangs at nearly 3yo.

I put my hands up to asking for advice and then not taking it. I am finding this all really hard. Appologies if that is frustrating to read. I am not ignoring all the advice on the thread. I think the reassurances that a gentler approach will take longer has been really useful.

Yes, I am doing this on my own. Dh works away so it's just me. Also, too much crying will wake up his sister and then I'll have two to settle.

Yes, his sore feet do wake him up, and no he is not walking for miles in stilettos (what a strange explanation to jump to!) he has very bad eczema on his feet with bleeding cracks and weeping sores. We are treating it as best we can but he has good days and bad days with it.

And re "WTF" at "breastfeeding still" - he is two, not twelve!

sorry about his poorly feet

if i were you ,i would take a more pragmatic approach, co sleep and cuddle especially whilst he is in pain and worry about the rest later

"0and all those people talking about how their babies have slept through from day 3 - they are telling big fibs! (or possibly manipulating their idea of time - i.e anything before midnight is still 'evening' and anything after 4.30am is 'morning' etc etc - they do it to maintain a modicum of sanity..."

I really hate this bloody attitude on mumsnet. IT IS NORMAL FOR BABIES TO SLEEP THROUGH FROM ABOUT 3 MONTHS , JUST BECAUSE YOURS DON'T DOESN'T MEAN THE OTHER PERSON IS LYING"

Both mine would do a straight 9- 10 hours without waking from 3 months. I didn't do any training they just stopped waking up for a feed in the night at about 12 weeks.

My dd2 was like this and I need to second or third the rapid return thing. Only thing that worked but it did within five days'. Never, ever thought she'd go to sleep without me but she did. I cold turkeyed the bf a while before but I think you could probably do both together.

Re feet - didn't mean to AIBU by stealth. Sore feet such a normal part of every day life here I didn't think to mention it.

Hi bruffin - surely it is fair to say that it is normal for your children to have slept through naturally from 3 months, but equally normal that the majority of children don't? And if my children had slept through with ease from 3 months I definitely wouldn't be so angry about it!

Yuno, just seen that your ds has eczema - missed that, sorry.

What treatment does your ds have?

It must be hard to separate the non-sleeping from the pain he has

So I sympathise (ds gets sore knees). Do you give him something when he wakes, and do you know if it's his feet?

yuno I ask this in a non-judgey way honest, but what is it about the crying that you find hard? What happens in the day is there is somethihg he wants but can't have? Does he ever have tantrums? If you want to keep getting up with him that's fine, but it may take a few more years before he wants you to stop getting up with him.... if you want to stop getting up with him then he may not like it and he may cry......But then you don't give him everything he wants in the day (or at least I assume not), is there something aboiut crying at night that makes it seem more distressing for you?

Yuno - I wasn't get at you it's just the muimsnet mentality that babies are incapable of sleeping through from an early age, and if you say they do you are a lyer. It has been said on Mumsnet over and over again and it's very annoying and completely untrue.

my two slept through from weeks old. i am definitely in the minority, i thikn that getting a baby to sleep through before aroudn 4 -6 monhts is more usual and it is not unusual or odd for a 12 month old to wake up

at 2.5 years, i think it is getting into the unusual territory, but still not unheard of

if a child is in pain and used to their mum being there to soothe and breastfeed and cuddle, it is not strange they would find it hard to settle without the breastfeeding etc..

You don't have to leave him to cry at all! Try the disappearing chair technique. At bedtime and anytime he wakes in the night start off laying him in cot or bed, say night night. Then turn your back but stay close. If he gets up lay him back down. No eye contact no talking. He probably will get cross and cry but he won't be distressed crying cos you will be with him. You can pat and shush if he's really annoyed but don't pick up.
It may take some time but eventually he'll go to sleep. Do this until you can lay him down and he's happy to go to sleep then you move further away from cot. The idea is that you're eventually stood by door then outside door.
I hope I've explained it ok. It will be tough but a lot gentler on both of you than controlled crying xx

Yuno it is possible that my DCs were nocturnal. What we did was cuddle DCs downstairs until they fell asleep then carried them up to bed. Once they were in bed if they woke they were allowed to come into our bed but there was no milk only water if thirsty and we were the most boring parents.

This went on for a while (moved to normal bedtime routines around the time they started school) but meant that DH and I could carry on a normal life. DCs are now much, much older and have no difficulty in getting themselve to sleep.

We found this approach much less stressful than any of the other options.

But Shineon I have stopped feeding him through the night. 8 nights now and holding firm. Hence him sobbing pitifully on my neck for hours every night and begging for milk while I try and coax him back in to bed and back to sleep.

I am trying to change things.

And for everyone who needs him to cry he IS crying, I promise! Lots and lots of crying. It's just that I won't LEAVE him to cry. I won't. It doesn't work on any level for my son and me. So he crys and I cuddle him and sometimes he tells me his feet are sore and we put on more cream and sometimes he tells me he is sad and I tell him I'm sorry and he can have milk in the morning and then he cries for a bit and then dozes off on my shoulder and I gently put him in to bed and he wakes up and cries a bit more and I explain that he needs to lie down and close eyes and have milk in the morning and eventually - EVENTUALLY - he says okay and he does climb in to bed and lie down and go to sleep with me sitting nearby (or me passed out asleep on his bedroom floor) and then we do the whole thing again a short while later.

Lenin and Ridgeway - you are right about a full belly making a difference. I think this is adjustment from his habit of not needing to eat so much because he is used to snacking on milk 24/7. And now that has ended it is hard for him but I am encouraging a nice big pasta supper and a cup of milk before bed.

What was my original point? I think it was that sleep training is hard but from reading threads on here you only have to do it for a few nights and then it's all fixed. And we've been doing 8 nights now and no sign of improvement. But, as people have pointed out, I am doing a gentle approach which will take longer.

Oh, AND, and this is an important bit, the only reason I am even trying to change anything is because he just wasn't getting enough sleep the old way. You know when you have a kid who is tired and cranky and tearful by 9 in the morning? He was permanently overtired. I was knackered. For everyone's sake he needs to sleep. Otherwise I'd have happily (if tiredly) gone on with the co-sleeping and night feeding until it faded away by itself.

it can take more than 3 nights, and before you start, have you cut the day time sleep? as this helps

also no night time feed, nada

2 and a half is a common age for this

hang on in there , and be prepared for crying!