"And then on the 3rd night he just slept through" <hollow laugh> <rocks> <weeps>

[YunoYurbubson]

It would seem that everyone else in the world had to do sleep training for three, or at the most four, nights and then their children miraculously slept through for twelvty-ten hours every night thereafter and there were rainbows and cherubs and fluffy bunnies and everyone lived happily every after. I KNOW this is true because I have been trawling the MN archives.

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG???

I am not even a sleep training type but have had to do something for fear of dying from lack of sleep.

Details:
Ds is 2 1/2. He spends every night lolling about on the boob sort of feeding and dozing and occasionally I manage to roll him off me and I grab 20 minutes sleep before he realises and howls in indignation and we begin with the rolling, lolling, dozing, feeding thing again.

History:
We have tried various sleep solutions before (NCSS, Baby Whisperer and another one, I forget which) but have unfortunately not had the balls to see them through, thus neatly teaching ds that if things are not going his way he just has to keep screaming at us and eventually we will capitulate.

And Now:
We've done 8 nights.
The rule is 'No Milk Until Morning'.
If he wakes up I fix whatever has woken him (thirsty / sore feet / leaked nappy etc) and settle him back into bed.
I give him cuddles if he is sad.
He clings pitifully to my neck for hours, erupting into hysterical sobbing if I gently encourage him back into his bed.
He is still begging for milk every night.

If I ever manage to get him camly in to his bed and lying down he dozes off pretty easily, it's getting him there that is so painful.

Last night I got about 2 hours sleep total, and those were on the floor of his bedroom.

Do I continue with this?
Do I do things differently?
What do I do?
SERIOUSLY, what do I do?

Yuno, it sounds to me like you are weaning off needing to bf to sleep rathe rthan tecahing him to sleep on his own. So of course it will take much longer because you don't even seem to be at the sleep stage yet.

FWIW I would never, ever leave any of my dc to cry. Ever. But rapid return isn't the same thing as cc. Every time my dd2 got out of bed I'd pick her up gently, give her a hug and tuck her back in. Dd1 and ds were different again and both responded to variations on the 'travelling chair' idea, aka gradual withdrawl. Didn't work for dd2 though.

Do you have steroid cream for ds or is it just moisturiser type stuff?

I did just go cold turkey for dd2 and bf, but I was 22 wks pg and she was biting me, and bf all through the night, and I was on the floor I was so tired. I did what you are doing, held her until she fell asleep but I didn't regard that as sleep training as such.

Incidentally my blood pressure was high during my pg so I had aday with a monitor on. When the results were checked there were two big peaks - dd2's nap time and dd2's bed time, when she screamed herself to sleep because of no boob (with me there of course). I was so glad they hadn't left teh monitor on through the night! So I do really sympathise, it's so stressful as well as upsetting and tiring.

For the eczema we have steroid cream which we try not to overuse, and we have a couple of good moisturisers which seem to help. I have him in cotton socks as much as possible. Although various doctors have diagnosed eczema, we also think it is allergy related because it is improved by regular oral antihistamene which he sometimes takes for unspecified bronchial allergy symptoms. Either way, the steroid cream helps with the thick skin build up, but then of course the new skin tears open so easily. And he can't take antihistamene all the time partly because it is drowsy (which does make him sleep, but does NOTHING for his sleeping habits in the big picture), and because I worry about the long term effects on his immune system which is obviously not completely brilliant to begin with.

Thanks all for the eczema sympathy by the way :)

"not had the balls to see them through, thus neatly teaching ds that if things are not going his way he just has to keep screaming at us and eventually we will capitulate."

this is what you did wrong

stop feeding him at night - you sleep in another bed and let DP deal - if he smells you he'll get all milky wanting

be firm and don't be maniulated

Sounds grim, Yuno. My dd1 is just getting over an episode of infective eczema, unusual for her but not nice. She's had anti-histamines, and strong antibiotics, and even stronger steroids and it's finally cleared up. Ds used to get infective eczema on his face as a baby. Both of them responded to Elocon but it is very strong I believe.

Allergy on the feet...what do you think it can be?

Thank Lenin. Don't worry, am feeling robust.

Activate - I have stopped feeding him at night, and my husband doesn't live here 5 nights a week. But thanks anyway.

Spirit, your poor dd. Glad she is on the mend now. We suspect ds's allergy may be sand which would be farking hillarious as we live in the Middle East.

OP this isn't meant harshly but will sound it - you won't allow DS to cry and he knows it.

To me it sounds like a vicious cycle - he cries for wet nappy - bound to happen when he's feeeding to sleep. You change it which is imo correct. You then feed him more and more and wonder why he wakes up again with a wet nappy.

You really are in a difficult place and no-one here it seems is flaming you for the reasons your tired as you've done what you feel is right. However there is some excellent advice on here which is do-able and from posters who have been through the same and I'd urge to you take it on board.

IME when you won't allow a child to cry at night when they should be sleeping and aren't you get into a cycle of blaming their tiredness on daytime behaviour and not sanctioning them when that is bad. A child wiith boundaries knows they are loved if you say they can't do something because you love them and don't want them tired, hurt to break something iyswim.

I suspect you have found the best cream for your lad but just wanted to mention aveeno. The cream and bath stuff combined worked wonders here.

The sleep....I wish I had an easy answer I would make a fortune. Tbh it sounds as though you are both doing really well.

Yuno, you're doing exactly the right thing and I am sure it will work. It just takes time. I have been phasing out night feeds for my 22month old, and am very happy with how it's going. But the first stage, when I decided not to give her any milk before 1.30am, was BRUTAL. It was awful. She screamed and screamed. I didn't leave her alone (we kind of co-sleep) but I did stick to my guns and refused to feed her. It took more like 2 weeks I think before she finally accepted it, but from then she was happy to have a cup of water when she woke and would then settle down again quickly.

We got a bit stuck on the nocturnal water-drinking until she started to cut right back on her daytime sleeps. I don't know if your ds is still sleeping in the daytime at all, but if he is I would suggest cutting that out.

Good luck. It will take time and it will feel like it is taking even more, but you will definitely get there if you are consistent and sure about what you're doing.

Quick msg as bathtime is nearly done here (dh is doing it, I've not abandoned them to it!).

First - I am fully paid up member of feeding to sleep club so no judgements from here, dd1 fed to sleep till nearly 3.5, while I was pg wtih her twin sisters.....

Have you read Jay Gordon's method? It's here: drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html - from a quick scan it sounds much the same as you've been doing, but may have some useful things to add in.

Is he still sleeping in the daytime? Maybe cut that out?

My dd1 started sleeping better when we added in a supper time - at first, she was having tea around 5.30, bath at 6, supper at 6.30 and in bed around 7 so it felt a bit nuts to have two meals in under an hour, but it definitely seemed to help. And all carbs - porridge, cereal, honey sandwich etc. Now that she is nearly 6 she still has tea 5.30-6 with her sisters, but then supper and bed are later. And she sleeps through the night, in her own bed, and goes off to sleep herself - so even those fed to sleep, and fed back to sleep, long term do get there in the end. She didn't sleep through until she wasn't being fed to sleep.

How is the first part of the evening? Can you get him to sleep and then leave? If you do that in his bed is it any better / worse than doing it in your bed?

The dts have coslept with us since day one - about two or three weeks ago (they are 2y3m) we realised we were waking them up getting into bed, so moved them into their own beds - two singles pushed together. I feed them to sleep, they stay asleep for a varying amount, almost always till 12.30 or 1pm, sometimes 3am, sometimes 5 or 6am I never thought they would sleep through so early, dd1 having not managed it till gone 4. The reason for telling you all that being a) some wee ones do get to sleeping through, even with being fed to sleep, so it's not impossible and b) wondering if you could manage to extend 'evenings' for your little one in a similar way.

The other thing I wondered about was his feet - if they are itchy and sore, maybe it's that which is the underlying cause of his bad sleep? I know that doesn't help much if you can't get the feet under control, though. Could he have an antihistamine?

Sending some un-MN hugs, because I have been at the end of my tether often over lack of sleep (and, ironically enough, even when my dts are now sleeping well, I have started sleeping badly and wake up from anxiety dreams half the night.... aargh). I hope the tack you are taking starts hlping you both to get a better nights sleep soon.

I would actually bf him more during the day so he is getting lots of feeding comfort and I would co sleep with him - can you but a bed or a large cot next to your bed so he has permanent reassurance that you are there?

My only other question is does he fall asleep whilst feeding because if he does then you need to stop doing that so he learns to fall asleep whilst not being fed.

if it is at all helpful to read my experience with dd, then we had similar issues to your original post, I felt at the end of my tether, tried to cut out the endless night feeding, screaming ensued etc. tbh, I left it, let her keep feeding, during the day every now and then I'd mention that she was getting to be a big girl now and soon she wouldn't need to feed at night etc etc. but just mentioned every now and then, not going on and on about it. a few months later she stopped feeding at night by herself and sometimes said 'it's nighttime isn't it' if she woke up and I'd cuddle her back to sleep instead. wearing more clothes in bed helped as well! you'll get more advise on the bf threads or on lll website I think as well

PS re. feeding to sleep - I have lately been feeding to sleep whenever I can get away with it, it is so much quicker and easier than waiting for her to go to sleep by herself. And there is absolutely no difference in her sleep on those nights, so I don't worry about that at all.

re the eczema - you really do have my sympathies. This is something that DH has struggled with over the years.

One useful piece of advice we picked up from the best eczema handbook we got, written by the doctors from one of the top UK eczema clinics, was about use of steroid creams - according to the authors, a lot of people (like us, like you) are worried about using them too much, so stop using them too early, with the result that the effect is lost, and you find yourself using them again a couple of months later, so ultimately you use the steroids for longer. They said you do need to use the cream for as long as prescribed, although the skin will appear to be healing about two-thirds of the way through the course of steroids. We hadn't been made explicitly aware of this, so found it helpful.

I'm far from an expert in this area as my two are good sleepers and I don't do co-sleeping, but from what you describe it sounds like maybe too much is changing for him all at once.

I do have a 2.4 year old, and for all their burgeoning independence, they are very fragile emotionally. DD1 sometimes wakes at night and I get into her bed and give her a cuddle. This is a new thing from a child that slept through from weeks old.

Could you work on night weaning first and then move him into his bed later on? Maybe that won't work because you being there us making him think of milk, but if you could establish bed as where you had a quick cuddle but after that just slept, maybe it would be less distressing? What if you left a cup of milk by the bed for him to drink if he wanted, but made it clear there would be no Mammy milk?

Sorry if useless, like I say just suggestions based on age of dc, not sleep expertise.

our son is 2 1/2 and hadn't.slept.a.wink since birth. we did over a year of sleep training, had a special sleep health visitor. nothing worked. finally 6 weeks ago we gave up trying and my Dh got into bed with him and cuddled him all night. now we leave him on his own once he is asleep and he sleeps through until 5.30 am. basically we had to do the opposite of what all the sleep books say. controlled crying has been shown to be damaging to some children and it certainly made my son worse.

I think you need to be tougher with him. No BF through night, rapid return and less cuddles etc. I now its harsh but he has clearly got into pattern of needing comforted by you, which would be fine if it was quick comfort, but clearly his sleep demands are hugely affecting his and your sleep.

It sounds like there is more than one thing going on here - he wants milk (which looks like the issue) but really he is unable to settle himself to sleep on his own. As I understand it, that is the root of all sleep problems. If you have been co-sleeping, would it work to put a pillow between you but still have him in your bed so you are close to comfort him but he is not actually touching you? When he was used to that he could go in his own bed and you could do the disappearing chair or whatever. But for as long as he can't sleep without touching you then you are on a hiding to nothing.