To tell the travellers...

[Starbuck999]

By my parents house to please fuck off?

Story is, my parents and their neighbours all clubbed together to buy a lovely piece of land that their terrace of houses over looks. None of them are rich and it was a large buy for them all but they all keep is beautifully and it is a lovely view for them all to enjoy, it's only a small patch of land, not what one could consider to be a field even. i think they have (had) plans to make it a play area for all the local children, or a sports field or something similar.

4 weeks ago, overnight, a few caravans appeared. Of course the residents went to speak to them to say it was private land (which they already knew as there are huge "private" signs all round it and they actually smashed down a large section of the fencing to drive their caravans in.) But the travellers refused to budge. They were very matter of fact and reasonably polite about the fact that they would not be moving and they knew the residents couldnt do anything to make them move right away. Lovely.

Now, whilst I fully appreciate anyone's right to live how they want, surely it should not be at the expense of others. It must be wonderful to live such a free life, moving from place to place if that is what you choose, but how can you not expect to pay? Caravans sites cost say £25 a night, they should be paying to stay in one, or buy their own land and live there.

The field is now horrendous. More and more caravans have been moved in, I'd say there's no about 20. There are huge piles of broken up crates, broken buggies, televisions etc and massive piles of general hosehold rubbish and food waste in black bags that have been split open by foxes I presume all round the edge of the land. It's starting to look like a landfill site!

I don't have the full details but basically the residents have been told nothing can be done to get rid of them right away, it will take time through the courts. Then they will be moved on. That's all that will happen. Now If I parked my car somewhere illegal it would be clamped, towed and I'd have a hefty fine - why doesn't the same apply?

AIBU?

Starbuck it's horrible when they've been but you need to get the local authorities involved asap. This happened to a friend of mine but as he was v friendly with the local backpatch motorbike group who owed him a favour they didn't stay long.

Yes, everyone has a right to a home but nobody has the right to invade somebody else's property to get that home.

NoSimpleSolutionsForThisIssueI'mAfraidTiggaxx

SolidGoldBrass What I meant was nothing at all related to ethnic cleansing. That is a ridiculous overreaction. What I meant was that the way society functions now, there is not the infrastructure to accommodate the roaming lifestyle in the way that some of the traveller groups wish to have it. We have little "common land" and understandably people wish to protect their private land. Adapting your way of life does not amount to being ethnically cleansed. Housemaids no longer constitute a large section of the population because the lifestyle that supported and required them has gone through the natural evolution and change of society. They were not rounded up and exterminated! If they do wish to continue then surely it is not unreasonable for them to provide their own sites or behave in such a way that people are prepared to let them stay on their land

WHY WAS MY MESSAGE DELETED BY MUMSNET??????????????????????? at 11:45am?

There was nothing rude or ofensive in my last post. Any ideas please?????

'nobody has the right to invade somebody else's property to get that home.'

If they've been using this site for a period of time, they may well have a right.

Trixie -- there are loads of housemaids in my neck of the woods. They don't live in, and they don't carry buckets of coal up four flights of stairs every morning, but they do all the cleaning in about 90% of the houses nevertheless.

As for providing their own sites -- Travellers have bought land and are often hounded by neighbours and dragged endlessly through the planning permission process when they try to use it or live on it, often to the point of hounding or harassment, and always because of prejudice.

Britain has a long history of attempted and sometimes successful ethnic cleansing within her own shores -- the clearance of the Highlands for instance, or the eviction of perhaps 3/4 of the poor rural population from some farmland areas during the 16th and 17th centuries when enclosure of commons became an attractive proposition for those with the clout and determination to accomplish it (sheep eating men, Thomas More). In the past the people affected boarded ships to America or migrated to the cities and towns and thus 'adapted'... Is this what you want? The impression that the Travellers should just 'go away' is unavoidable here.

"Travellers have bought land and are often hounded by neighbours and dragged endlessly through the planning permission process when they try to use it or live on it, often to the point of hounding or harassment, and always because of prejudice."

Please don't assume it is prejudice. Of course travellers should have to go through the planning process, just as anyone in the settled community should. I'm all for equality but not special treatment.

Oh FGS Math, honestly. Ethnic cleansing indeed. We're talking about people who destroy other people's property and leave a midden when they vacate it, not a persecuted minority of the romantic kind you seem to want to believe they are.

I wondered why your post had been deleted Starbuck - it was completely innocuous

I don't even understand why there is a debate about this? If the travellers were in the OPs back garden would people be justifying them? And who cares if some travellers keep their sites lovely and clean, these ones aren't. I think its insane that people have no rights to have trespassers removed! Its not the OPs problem that travellers don't have many places to go!

Rights and responsibilities go together. If the travellers were cleaning up after themselves then I would be more sympathetic but treating someone else's property like that should cause them to lose any right they might have had to be there.

When you say nobody deserves any kind of special treatment; why should the taxpayers fund sites for the Travellers, there aren't enough places to house even settled people anyway; why can't they buy their own site; let's get them evicted and they can do their thing somewhere else; let's get tough new trespass laws, what you have is a desire for a temporary fix accompanied by a refusal to recognise that there's a stubborn and apparently durable problem there that will just keep on presenting itself in different guises and in different backyards until it is recognised for what it is and dealt with appropriately. NIMBYism is understandable but ultimately completely ridiculous as an approach.

The experience of Ireland in dealing with the Travellers and failing miserably should provide food for thought here. The failure and the misery affected everyone concerned, Travellers and property-owners alike. And above all, it affected residents of council estates where 'itinerants' were housed without any acknowledgment of the needs they might face in 'accommodating' themselves, or how deep and distinct their culture was. Only with the realisation that mutuality and collaboration is necessary, on both sides, has even the glimmer of progress been made possible.

Or you can try dismissing them as crazy, dirty anachronisms and give them horrible labels and make them feel like the epithets you apply to them, and see what the term 'self-fulfilling prophecy' means.

so if it were your strip of land, you'd be perfectly happy with a group of people camping there, for free, damaging the place and then leaving you with all the mess to clean up then, math?

YANBU at all, it's an awful situation to be in. Happened at the field at the end of our village, they just appeared overnight. THe farmer who owns the field took his digger and started to dig a massive ditch all the way round them and told them he intended to make it a moat! He was so incensed they realised he was serious and they did move on but I realise that's rather drastic.

OP - Kent you say? are there sheep on the strip of land? If so I know where these trespasses are - if not there are some more quite close to me. They at least have brought their own portaloo but they have also knocked down fencing/ bushes and are spreading across this strip of land.

I don't think this is reasonable behaviour at all - I think everyone would be might pissed off if anyone put up camp in their garden but by all accounts that is just fine as they don't have anywhere else to go...... I don't particularly want anyone apart from me in the garden that I have spent hours looking after and hours working to pay for.

I would say this about squatters/travellers/unwanted guests who have decided to camp for longer than one night (happens around here alot, my neighbour woke up to find 2 tents in his garden but apparently that is fine until it happens to any of you )

Maisie - MN HQ just emailed me to say my post was deleted as it contained a sweeping generalisation of a minority group. Bullshit! I specifically stated I was talking about the group of travellers apposite my parents only. How odd they chose my particular post to delete?!?

Perhaps one of the moderators is one of the people causing the mess opposite my parents.

Doodleydoo - No, there's no sheep there. It's not even a field as such, more what people may think of as a village green, just it backs onto fields.

I can't imagine waking up to find tents in my garden, how odd - were they regular campers?

No, I would be very PO'd if it was my land. But I would look at the big picture too. It's not enough to simply move them on, if only because they will be back again some day and the whole annoying business will begin again.

I would also examine my assumption that there is any real meaning to the term 'my land' as the law would suggest there really is not.

I saw nothing offensive about your post, Starbuck, but a lot of people on this thread think landowners should just allow people to camp out on their property for free and as long as they want and leave it all a tip in their wake just because.

I noticed that expat, bet they'd feel differently if it were their parents being put through all this, really the stress and worry and about the financial implications must be horrible for all the residents, they'll have to foot the bill to clear up after the trepassers leave!

Maybe all those bleating on about how travellers need somewhere to live can all offer some of their family's land for free to be ruined by anyone who fancies setting up camp there. Someone PM your address and I'll pass it on to those opposite my parents as a free place to stay!

What are your parents going to do Starbuck?

Id make life hell for those living on that land.

• A systematic and organised noise attack by the land owners at 5am - Dolly Parton or something.

• Paint guns the caravans

• Nail their doors shut in the night

Lastly, shotguns

maybe your folks can set up a legit caravan site on that land. then at least they'll get compensated for the use of a it as a campsite.

what about new age travellers? are they an ethnic group, seeing as they don't have to be of any particular lineage and/or have a dialect or language?

the idea of paying rent and council tax when i can get it for free is not without its appeal, tbh.

added bonus of not have to live surrounded on all sides of thin walls by speed freaks/tweakers, criminals, and people with a penchant for domestic violence in the small hours of the morning.

Ok here's what I think.

Your parents do actually have to do something because if they don't start proceedings to get them to move on then they and the other owners could be in breach of the Planning Acts.

So what your parents need to do is to firstly try to talk to the Travellers to see if a leaving date can be agreed. (Although from OP looks like you've already tried this)

Then take proceedings under the Civil Procedure Rules 1998 to obtain a Court Order for their eviction.
Obtaining a court oder takes approx 10 days. You do this through a county court.

The time it takes for them to leave depends on the council.

Erm. Have your parents rung the police? I don't think trespassing is a criminal offence in itself but obviously vandalism is. And regardless, the police will visit any site reported to them, which could help get the ball rolling a bit.

It's a faff, but what can you do. This is actually why there should be more legal sites, I think. It is better all round when Travellers buy their own property though, of course.

Oh but also the council aren't actually obliged to get rid of them, because it's private land. And I think according to the government, if it's deemed that the Travellers aren't causing a problem, then their presence may be tolerated.

Expat, Travellers, Romany etc., are all distinct ethnic groups, distinct from each other and from the general population, whereas New Age Travellers are not (yet). The Irish Travellers anyhow share enough genetically to be considered a separate ethnic group. Here's the abstract of one study (there are more) on Irish Travellers showing a specific genetic divergence from the general Irish population.

Starbuck - no my neighbours woke up to find a car with 2 bikes on the back in their garden (assumed by said campers to be a field as it had a pet sheep in it) and a tent erected. The campers said they thought it would be alright. Oh yeah, come camp in my garden! Very strange indeed, but not the only time it has occured to my neighbours!

Your poor parents, but unbelievably as I have discovered there is nothing to protect you from trespassing (did a lot of research as we were having a problem with people parking in our driveway because we bought a house that had been empty for a while!) which is very strange imho but apparently not in law.

Starbuck - I'm furious that your post was deleted. There was nothing there that merited it's deletion.

OneNameChange - your posts are excellent, very informative, and balance some of the nonsense on here.

In fact, I've had the best idea. Math (and others) would you please share your address with us all, and then when the next lot of travellers pitch up on sites near us, we can simply point them in the direction of your garden or property?

Thank you so much.

I've already had the Travellers camp nearby experience growing up in suburban Dublin in the 70s and 80s; my current address is too urban to fit more than a lawn chair or a sleeping bag or two outside.

The best idea is probably the Ballybane project I linked to earlier.