to hide the feminism topic?

[CerealOffender]

the thread titles are all so serious and worthy and make me feel frivolous and unsisterly.

I post in that section and I know what you mean about 'the menz' comments.

Most if us are mothers. About 50% of us see mothers of boys. The other 50% have girls some of whom will marry/cohabit with these boys or others like them.

Men are very important to feminism as it is women who raise them. And men should be welcome in that section as the discussions are interesting and informative.

Kittywise would you expect black people talking about the civil rights movement to want to get into a discussion on the injustices white people experience?

Equally would you expect disabled people talking about the prejudice they experience to welcome a discussion of the difficulties able bodied people encounter?

There are lots of feminist issues that mainly affect women - that is why they are feminist issues. Why should feminist discussion revolve around men when it is the only area of discussion which is dedicated to the fact that men and women are not treated equally?

Men experience plenty of hardship and injustice, that goes without saying - it doesn't mean that we have to talk about it every time we mention injustice to women however. Lots of feminists resist talking about men's problems because well, they're kinda busy discussing women's issues - that's what makes them feminists.

Lots of feminists are also interested in human rights/civil rights, etc - they discuss men/women/human issues within those contexts.

I was aware of that link Beachcomber posted, and of the rationale behind the "women's space" thing. But does feminism have much of a future without getting enlightened men on board? If they're not allowed to join the discussions - and "cascade it down" to less enlightened ones, to use a bit of horrible management-speak - doesn't it just risk being a talking-shop?

@Crazycatlady

I think you should avoid making judgements merely on the basis of heresay (ie what people are saying happens). To judge for yourself you would be wise to visit the board yourself and see. You may find that it's better than it is cracked up to be.

Personally this thread has made me vow to find time to lurk and post over there.

I don't think men are excluded as such. However I do think that many feminist subjects of interest are quite difficult to talk about and need a 'safe' space as it were for doing so.

I think it is great when men join feminist discussion. However I do think that it is really important for men to listen to carefully to women's viewpoints on issues which affect women. Of course men have a different perspective but if you have a whole bunch of women telling you they disagree with how you have interpreted their experience and circumstances then I think the only thing to do is listen and learn really.

I might think that as an empathetic white person I can understand how my black friends feel but the only way to really understand is to listen to them and try to unravel the knots they create in my own thinking when they point out my inevitable gaffs as a person of privilege.

There is a really great blog by a male feminist which expresses this idea very well - I'll try to find it.

UQD: some feminists assert that you have to be a woman to be a feminist. I don't agree.
But I do agree that a feminist board should discuss issues relating to women exclusively.

One aspect of this, I think, is of course how to parent (as a woman) boys and girls; but not how to parent as a man. IYSWIM?

Catita I have skim read all the threads on the first 10 pages of the feminism board, so I'm posting from a position of at least having read it. I read the board quite regularly, but don't post for all the reasons I've stated.

see this has descended into C&P she said/i said finger pointing

i think what id take from the thread (and it has been good un) is feminism board is a bitty shouty and name calling,and that makes it feel oppressive.aha,ok so lots on mn is shouty and name calling - yes v true!but not in a way that antifeminist is bandied about,as is if one is bereft of any moral fibre and selling out da sistas

there have been good discussions on the feminism board and will continue to be too. hope it becomes a well used forum. and not as biscuit arsed or accusatory as it has been

as i said i will participate as i wish,as a discursive forum should be like that.

Well look at it this way. How would it be if I started a thread about being a white middle class woman in England today? How would it be if I said no black people could really have anything relevant to add to my discussion? Well I'm heterosexual so no lesbians either, their pov's aren't relevant to me either. Working class people? What if I didn't want to talk to those with a similar educational background because they would really understand where was coming from and the issues ? wanted to discuss?
Well if I did that I would be eaten alive and rightly too
You simply can't choose whom you want to discuss things with, who is welcome at your political table.
Wrong, wrong, wrong

Sorry Crazycat, I understood from your comment that you hadn't been there. You are quite right to point out that I have not (save browsing the titles some weeks ago). My apologies.

My comments however on the nature of MN in general derive from many years of reading.

No problem Cat!

Kittywise, quite valid analogies there. Illustrates my point about closed debate/movements much better than I did.

YABU- if you don't like it don't read it!

Kittywise: but noone is saying (at least from what I see here) that men are not welcome. As I said before, some feminists do hold this position, but I would think that they are the minority.

What is being argued is the the theme of the discussion should be exclusively about women.

To use you analogy. People of all genders, colours and sexuality have something to say about the the theme of middle class hetrosexual women and should be welcome to say it. But, if they want to discuss for example, the theme of being a homosexual middle class male, they should find an appropiate forum in which to discuss it.

One of the biggest problems (imo) is that some of the more robust posters are coming at the section as purely political, others like me are coming in as a women that believes she is a feminist ie wants equality with men etc

It seems to me (as a not very well read or educated women) that my group are really not welcome as we haven't read the texts or have the knowledge that others have.

Which leaves no room for debate as political feminism has no space for debate, it's already decided.

So, it would help to know if the section is solely for policital feminism or for average people that want equality, want to learn and want advice on how to move on from here and help our sons and daughters in the future

[lightbulb] Perhaps we should ask for a section/board on mens' studies on MN too?

And no, I am not being factious. It is a genuine idea.

catinahatita yes I do understand your point, but I do disagree I think! No one lives in isolation, no issues are really separate from other issues. To talk about what it is like to be a gingerhaired man living in Leytonstone means very little unless it is compared to other situations. How does it compare to being a blond haired woman living in Stoke on Trent?
These are silly examples, but it is the same point. Women's issues are as they are because of hundreds of other issues, like a giant web, all linked and tangled together. I think it is important to discuss say the oppression of women alongside the oppression of men, it gives it meaning and perspective, which in isolation it cannot have. Like looking at a tiny bit of a photograph instead of the whole thing.

That's not really what I'm saying though kittywise. The majority of feminists do not say that men cannot enter discussion or have anything relevant to add.

What I am saying is that feminism is concerned with issues of equality which affect women. Men can discuss these issues and make relevant and thoughtful contributions. The issue is when men, or women try to change the fundamental subject of conversation from women's issues to men's issues.

Or when men attempt to tell women that they are wrong on issues which affect women and not men.

Interestingly the examples you use are positions of privilege (white, middle class, heterosexual) so not really the same as women discussing women's issues.

Feminism is discussing issues from the premise that men and women are not treated equally in society. That means that men (as a group) are considered to be in a position of privilege with regards to their gender and women (as a group) to a position of oppression.

Politically it just doesn't work for the privileged party to tell the oppressed when it is time to stop feeling oppressed or how to feel about their oppressed position - that is just more dominance and oppression!

Beachcomber, I do understand, there are subtle differences in the examples yes. Not sure how to answer as of yet . Too many kids, end of summer hols, brain addled!

Kittywaise: Hmm, yes I understand you now (I didn't before). I think you have a point; but, I would argue that looking at the whole picture all at the same time makes it very difficult to see the minor details. It is useful therefore, to also study the various strands separately. Which is why I made the suggestion about Mens studies, really.

I am not an expert on the matter, but I think that feminism and womens studies derived from the fact that before them, women and their issues were not recognised or awarded much consideration in an intellectual world that tended to focus on men as the sole representative of humanity. Mens studies I think was a logical consequence of establishing women's studies; ie. men and their issues also needed their unique space. In this way feminism brought to an end of the idea that one sex represented humanity.

Useful dialogue between the disciplines helps us see a better bigger picture, I think. Just as dialogue between economists and sociologists help us understand our economy and our society.

Are men really the privileged party though? I just don't think it's as black and white as that.

As an example, looking at say workplace issues, I reference again the Meet the Parents mockery of the main male character who is nurse and the Manny (male nanny) jokes in Friends.

Men are oppressed in different ways and to me it seems entirely relevant to discuss female and male involvement in the workplace under one umbrella.

Scaredoflove-
i dont read feminist books as i dont understand them.
im very not well read or educated.
i still find some very interesting discussions over there though-
please dont let some things put you off.

Scaredoflove, I don't understand what you mean.

You say that you want women to have equality with men. That is a political statement and pretty much defines what feminism is about. So that would make you a political feminist.