Lying to work again

[cherrycakesparkle]

I posted on Sunday about my concerns over leaving my breastfed son to go to a work conference which would take me away from him for at least 19 hours. I didn't want to upset my relationship with my employer who might have taken a less than sympathetic view of me not wanting to attend because of this, so was considering lying and saying that I had a hospital appointment on the day of the conference so could not go. Not a particularly moral or correct thing to do, but hardly the worst crime either.

For those of you who did not read the thread, which you can still see, I was called pathetic - or rather my relationship with my son was - I mean, it takes a special kind of nasty person to say that about a mum and her baby; lame; a pathetic waste of space - that was from one poster whose posts in general seem to me to be brimming over with rage and bitterness and hate; a nasty piece of work, and horrible - from someone confused between horrible, and standing up for yourself - amongst other things. I was told that the problem lay with me, that actually I just couldn't be bothered to go to the conference and was using my son as an excuse.I simply couldn't believe the hatred and vitriol coming from the replies to my thread. Someone smugly informed that they had morals, whilst in the same breath told me in not so many words I was a bad mother and spoiling and mollycoddling my son.

I was also accused of running 'bleating' to mumsnet, 'crying and begging' to have the thread deleted.The playground language used here is stomach-turning.Sorry to disappoint you, but there was no crying or begging involved.I have asked them to delete it and they have agreed. As far as I can see it hasn't been done yet - am not planning to check again to be honest.The whole thing, actually, has made my skin crawl with the sheer nastiness of it. The hypocrisy and sanctimoniousness almost laughable - you must not lie, ever, but it's ok to hurl abuse at people online.

By the way, those of you who are employers - your employees lie to you. Not all of them, not all of the time, but they do.You're naive to believe otherwise.

I hold my hand up and say that I reacted in kind to those who attacked me.Yeah, I was spiteful. If you insult me, I'm going to give exactly what I get. I stand up to bullies. Sorry. And make no mistake, having lurked and posted on mumsnet sporadically for the last year or so, my thread was one of the nastiest examples of bullies rounding on a poster I have ever seen. Pages and pages and pages of insults. Some generated by me, but only in retaliation. I think many of you are sadly hardened to that kind of behaviour on here. My husband read the thread yesterday and was genuinely appalled and upset to see his wife insulted like that. I have never in my life been insulted in that way, because I am none of the things I was called.Thankfully, I have a life, and friends, and family, offline who know that.

I did however receive some supportive posts. In my world, and most other normal people's, we thank people who say supportive things to us. That's not creeping or crawling, or sickeningly trying to ingratiate yourself with people (why would I? I have no intention of posting on mumsnet again).It's what people do. But that's what I was told I was doing by some of the charmers on here. I'm afraid some of you spend so much time online that you forget how real life works.

It's because of those supportive posts that I decided to post this. After talking to friends and family last night to gain some perspective on my dilemma, and, yes, taking into account what was said to me in the more sensible and well meaning posts (there I go again, creeping and crawling), I decided to come clean with work and take the risk they would be annoyed with me. And, actually, it was fine. I spoke to my manager this morning, and he is OK with me not coming. He asked in fact if there was anything else he could do to make breastfeeding and working easier for me. He is going to book out a room for me to express in every day. He also said for as long as I am breastfeeing I won't be expected to do any more overnight stays if they come up. A really good result.So in that regard, I'm glad I posted, because I might have lied otherwise.

Please, please, don't waste your time with nasty posts to me now. I am simply not going to read them. I didn't read any of the replies to my last post on the other thread, and I've no intention of logging back in to read what I imagine will just be further vitriol from some of the bored, and angry, angry ladies on this site. I've no intention of visting mumsnet again. As I say, I've posted on mumsnet for some time, and it's depressingly predictable how this will go. I imagine I'll be accused of never having told work at all - I'm just looking for an excuse to post (I don't need one). Or more charming insults - I can hazard a guess.It would be nice to think people might read it, digest it, and move on.But hey, this is mumsnet.

So save your "off you fuck then"s and "good riddance"s, and "Hey, cherry, if you decide to come back on (I won't), I just want to say this to you..."s and go take your problems out on something else. Thank you again to all who posted good advice yesterday.

I read part of the thread and reported to my DH that night that it had put me off my return to work after a career break. I couldn't believe other mothers could be so unsympathetic. Your son is 7 months isn't he? Crying to sleep because he mother has suddenly disappeared and he can't get his usual source of nutrition is actually possibly going to be quite hard for him - do they even have object permanence at that age (can't remember)? My third child couldn't take a bottle or dummy until well beyond a year - if I had suddenly disappeared overnight, he would have been left high and dry.

I couldn't believe some of the comments either. Haven't read this thread other than a couple of posts but even comments like this irritate me: 'I reckon OP is just being precious all round. You know what they say about heat and kitchen ...'. After 7 months and feeding, I was still pretty hormonal and absolutely knackered. I didn't realise that it was necessary in the workplace 'man up' to this extent.

OP - the vast majority of people on your other thread suggested that you just told work and deal with it from there.

You're being very OTT about this, chill the fuck out and stop worrying so much what total strangers say to you.

pink, talking to your work instead of lying is not 'manning up'. It is called being an adult.

Flaming Nora. I am so glad I'm not married to you.

I was also lurking on the other thread and OP very definately started it. Classic case of not getting the answer she wanted and then starting to snipe back at everyone. Until later on very few people were saying she should be expected to go to the conference and the advice was all about the best way to approach her employer.

pinkpanettone - mothers were only unsympathetic because they were provoked by the OP. The OP was being precious - basically this is what I want to do and I'm entitled to lie to get it. I'm a full time working mum and people doing this sort of thing reflects badly on me. I have no problem with someone agreeing something with their employer to make home life better/easier but I have an issue with the fact that they think it's ok to be unprofessional (i.e. lying) because there's a child involved.

Yes some people lie to work all the time. That doesn't make it right!

i also lurked on the other thread and was disgusted at the OP's behaviour. Particularly given that she apparantly doesnt have any faith in her own DH in looking after her LO's (that saddened me actually)

I too am a working mum and work hard to dispel the myth that we are out to get what we want or are 'entitled' to (i use that term loosely!). You werent BU to not want to be away from your LO's but you were BU wanting to be dishonest about it - by the way - there are some professions where you would be struck off/sacked for dishonesty.

Has the other thread been deleted? I want to read it out of nosiness now

To the OP - whatever the subject - if you can't take strong opinions, don't post in AIBU.

I have to stick up for the OP here. I think the premise of her post (should I lie?) was ill-considered and yes, she could have listened sooner to the advice given. But back in the real world for a second, I think her reluctance reflects the embarrassment that some mums feel around bfing, particularly if they work in an all-male environment.

I'm also amazed at how many mums on MN are anti- employers making bfing accommodations, as if this is somehow about the mother being awkward, rather than society as a whole deciding that bfing the next generation is a good thing (where possible).

I thought that the days of women needing to be like men in the work place to succeed behind us? Didn't we ditch that argument back in the eighties?? Honestly, I think the reactions on this thread show that women are STILL their own worst enemies.

Isawthreeships - that wasn't what people were arguing at all. The overwhelming POV on the thread was that her employer should make provision for her to breastfeed/express because they legally have to do that. The OP didn't want to tell them that she was still breastfeeding and so that's why she wanted to lie.

It was a very confused point of view - on the one hand she was arguing that she loved her child more than other women because she wasn't happy about leaving him but on the other she wanted to return to work and pretend that feeding him wasn't an issue.

Ladybiscuit, I'm not denying that many posters on the original thread held the POV that she should explain to her employers who should make accommodations for her. I posted something similar myself.

I'm also not denying that the OP could have listened to that advice sooner.

But there were a significant number of posters on that thread and this one who are advocating that the OP go to the conference, irrespective of the needs of the baby. The comments were clearly along the lines that if bfing mothers don't want to be discriminated against, then they should get back to work and not expect any special treatment. It was those comments that I was directing my last post to.

On a different note, I also don't see that there needs to be a 'one size fits all' date at which accommodations for bfing mothers must stop as hinted at by tsc. Surely employers and employees can negotiate each case around the needs of the baby - so some mums will be able to travel overnight leaving a 6mo behind, others will need to wait til 12mo, and so on.

fwiw I reported one of the OP's posts. It was just plain nasty.

I'm pleased she's taken the stirling advice she was given here though, and hope she realises that she was overreacting (which is something we all do at times).

Had she got the kind of response she was after (I assume a bunch of "OMG that's so outrageous" and perhaps a few hugs), I doubt she'd have reached a sensible compromise with her employer. Furthermore had she been found out, she might have found herself out of a job (or with a black mark against her name at the very least).

Altinkum - 7mo.

thread hasnt been deleted

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1026322-to-lie-to-work

altinkum that wasnt the issue - the issue was that the OP wanted to lie to work to say that she had a hosp appointment to get out of going to the conference. in the end she told her employer the truth regarding wanting to be nearby to BF her babba to sleep and he (yes he ) was absolutely fine about it.

no one had an issue with her BFing, just the dishonesty and playing the 'mother' card that disappointed us all

But if the baby is able to be left at nursery, then the baby is able to be left at night surely? I very rarely do evenings/overnights because I'm a single parent and getting childcare for those times is pretty impossible. But if there is an overnight thing I had to attend twice a year and I knew when it was in advance, then I would make provisions to do so.

I think this is a bit of a sticky area and there are a lot of employers who don't want to hire women of childbearing age because they are not prepared to be flexible.

Flexibility works both ways.

tsc - if you follow your line of thinking (to paraphase: if mums play the mum card, then no one will employ mums), then no one would employ disabled people either, or women of child-bearing age, or orthodox Jews who need to leave early on a Friday, or Muslims who need to pray regularly, all of whom need or may need accommodations in the workplace.

Thankfully, most employers recognise that variety in the workforce is important and so we don't all have to be carbon copy alpha males to succeed. For the remaining minority of employers, there are anti-discrimination laws for good reasons.

tsc and ladybiscuit - completely agree that wanting to lie was stupid. But to give the OP credit, she didn't lie and has now sorted an arrangement that works for everyone.

FWIW I don't think she was playing the mum card. In fact, I read the OP as specifically not wanting to play the bfing card, which was why she was considering lying.

If, by the 'mum card' you mean that she still bfs her 7mo to sleep and can't leave him overnight, we'll have to agree to diagree. I don't think that one size fits all when it comes to babies. Some can cope without a bf at 7mo because they'll take a bottle or are eating well. Others can't and don't. I don't think the OP should be accused of playing the mum card, just because she has a baby that won't sleep or resettle yet without a bf. That sounds a bit judgey to me.

I never used the term 'playing the mum' card - I think that's an obnoxious phrase. My issue was that she wanted to lie because she didn't think her employer would understand but didn't want to assert her rights as a breastfeeding mother. Glad she did in the end but actually doing that kind of thing is entirely what undermines breastfeeding women in the workplace.

tsc - so you object to her lying (which I read as being because she didn't want to disclose that she is bfing - maybe we have to agree to disagree here);

but you also object to mums who - with the agreement of their employers - limit the hours they are away from home?

Jeez, no wonder women feel guilty. We're always wrong.

Sorry, Ladybiscuit, 'playing the mother card' was a quote from tsc's posts, not yours.