to think that the catholic church are bloody immoral and need to be made answerable to the shit they seem to get away with?

[cupcakesandbunting]

I am referring to this; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

and yes, I am totally aware that the police and government are to blame too but we expect governments and to an extent police, to be corrupt.

I am saying this as a RC too. I am fucking shocked at the amount of revolting crap that the church seem to get away with. Covering up paedophiles/abusers, bombers and who knows what else.

Why are they never made accountable?

Heracles - for Brits at least, you can't. I have tried. You cannot voluntarily make yourself a stateless person.

Best you can do is emigrate, qualify for citizenship elsewhere, then take it up, then try to renounce. But it's still awkward.

i am aware of the involvement of the catholic church in these things thanks

i was asking for evidence of the blanket assertion that support of fascism is something catholics (the implication is all, or certainly most) is something catholics are prone to

again, i am happy to discuss the church and its history

but i don't know how to respond to accusations that i am pro fascism, i am a child abuser etc, or that these are things that all or most or even just a bare majority of catholics do

evidence please for 'Catholics have a track record of supporting Facist organisations e.g. the Third Reich, the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War'

OK then, regarding the Spanish Civil War:

[[www.iiipublishing.com/franco.htm Not counting soldiers on the Republican side actually killed in the fighting, the probably total of executions carried out by Franco was in the vicinity of 2 million.
The Catholic Church not only did not make any effort to stop the slaughter. Priests reported citizens who had not attended mass during or before the Civil War; that in itself was enough to result in execution.]]

According to historian Paul Preston, the minimum number of those executed by the rebels is 130,000, and is likely to be far higher. The violence carried out in the rebel zone was carried out by the military, the "Civil Guard", the Falange in the name of the regime and legitimized by the Catholic Church

On their support for Nazi Germany:

In the Reichskonkordat, the Vatican has promised that German Bishops and their subordinates will be obedient to and honour the Nazi state (Article 16). It has promised that German Catholic educators will teach children patriotic love for the Nazi state (Article 21)

You did ask.

One way not to respond, if I may be so bold, is to make unsupportable analogies.

I'm totally with you regarding being on a par with the worst members of your club, but I'm still absolutely certain that a member of a club, one joined (or maintained) by choice, must bear their share of responsibility for the actions of their members.

Erm, so teaching children in primary schools that same-sex couples can marry is terribly terribly wrong but raping children in Catholic schools is covered up and therefore allowed to continue?

Am I missing something?

Chibi - you're obviously terribly confused.

Afew posts ago you asked for evidence of the catholic Church having supported Fascism and then (after Heracles kindly provided it for you) you claim to be aware of the same church in those things.

You then offer to debate the history of the Church. Personally i don't think you're competent to do so after the ignorance you've displayed to date.

You are not a child abuser - however, you need to reconcile the fact that the Catholic priest who is a child abuser is paid for out of funds that you provide.

Personally i can think of more deserving and less damaging ways of parting with my money.

Or it is an insrance policy against the fairies at the bottom of teh garden casting an evil spell on you?

Barking.

Here's an interesting documentary about the Catholic Church in America!

An illuminating interview

Heh heh :)

ok, i have tried to post in good faith and explain my position, how i have wrestled with things, why i feel as i do

from what i gather, because i am catholic i am some grinning mug who supports fascism, child abuse and who knows what other atrocities. i am feeling a lot of contempt from some of you, fine, fair enough

as such there doesn't seem much point in continuing to post, people rarely listen to those they hold in contempt

this could have been interesting, i think there is great scope for a discussion on this topic beyond yah boo catholics are all fascist baby rapers

i'll leave you to it

FFS, 6 year olds should be told that they can marry someone of the same sex, because legally they can!

Not at 6 surely, maryz?!!!

Agree with your overall point though. How about one of these for the kids!

i asked for evidence of catholics

not evidence of the catholic church

to me they are not identical, any more than a british citizen is the british government

ok i really do quit now

It's not a club.

But chibi - is it enough for us just to say "well it wasn't me, or anyone I know"? Because the Catholic church in England and Scotland, our own church leaders, covered it up. It's that I find so hard in terms of being a Catholic now. People sin, but the church shouldn't be protecting them from the legal consequences of that sin, and certainly shouldn't be putting them in position to repeat it, putting more vulnerable children at risk. It is such a failure on every level that I can't process it. I think every time we try to argue our corner, we just add fuel to the fire. There is no excuse. None. I can see why people are shocked that we can stay in the Church. I don't like being associated with it all either, but that is what they (the abusers and their defenders) have done to us. We are tainted by them, and they are who I am angry with.

of course it isn't enough TFM

i am not posting from an 'hey i didn't personally do anything so i don't give a shit' perspective at all

the points in your post are the ones i think would form a v interesting basis for a discussion, and one i would have liked to have

instead i am posting about how i am not a rapist or a fascist in response to posts that as i am catholic, i must be these things

TheFallenMadonna - Can I ask without in any way meaning to anger you. I read what you said about your wrestle with the Catholic Church and your continuing faith.

I can understand someone wanting to express faith but why does it specifically have to be the Catholic faith. If you're uncomfortable with that Church is there no other church that could fulfill your need?

I thought that basically they all Christian churcjes agreed on the same things - they just had a variety of ways of expressing it.

Just interested - I don't intend to criticise.

"i asked for evidence of catholics

not evidence of the catholic church

to me they are not identical, any more than a british citizen is the british government"

Are you deliberately not reading the bit I wrote about choice opf membership, chibi?

"It's not a club."

To all reasonable definition it is.

"instead i am posting about how i am not a rapist or a fascist in response to posts that as i am catholic, i must be these things"

So make your case, then ignore those who band the same drum repeatedly and engage with the others. That's how forums work.

But I am a Catholic, and I am on this thread, and I am not posting about not being a rapist.

Actually, I think I did briefly mention it right at the start, but only briefly

I objected to the word "club" because I think it trivialises (I don't mean that rudely btw) it for me. It is bound up with my life in a way that no club could be. IT's not like the WI or something. I am a catholic culturally as well as in faith.

And the last bit is why I would find it hard to worship elsewhere. If I lost my faith I could walk away. But I haven't lost it. And for me, the expression of that faith has always been Catholic. And although I am a very very bad Catholic in many ways, I find it easier to justify my disregard of certain teachings (contraception, pre-marital sex) than I do to worship in my DH's (protestant) church.

Sorry - got carried away.

First bit to chibi, second to heracles, third bit to wetaugust!

Thank you for explaining it. I've often wondered why people didn't try alternatives. I guess just as I was born British you were born into the faith and therefore, as you say, it's cultural.

TFM your post explains how i feel

obviously i am putting my points across poorly as this is not what others seem to be hearing

the thread as i have been reading it has been a bunch of quotations about how stupid religion and by extension its followers are, coupled with assertions that catholics are as culpable as priests who have committed crimes - it seemed quite hostile frankly

Genuine practising catholics who believe that the Catholic church is divine are not going to turn away from the church and the sacraments (which they believe they need for the health of their immortal souls) because of the actions of certain individuals within the human infrastructure of the church. These individuals have naturally disgraced the church and brought it into disrepute.

However it is categorically not simply a members club that you can boycott. Non-catholics and catholics of the pick and choose mentality may rail against this concept until the cows come home but that is the reality. Fact. No amount of argument is going to change that reality.

The catholic church will nevertheless continue. Haters of the catholic church and those who think catholics/religious people stink in general (Spacehopper5) will also continue to develop and expound their arguments and prejudices. All the recent scandals have justifiably provided fuel for this.
I don't really know what my point is here and doubtless someone will come along and post a scathing put down but I just wanted to get my thoughts down.

In answer to the OP - I guess you are not unreasonable to think what you think - it seems to be a pretty bog standard thought process at the moment. All those of similar views certainly have plenty of reading material in the press and TV programmes to support your view at the moment.

Good post Roobie.

maryz. I was making a lighthearted comment at your syntax which implied that 6 year olds can legally get married! That's all!

"However it is categorically not simply a members club that you can boycott. Non-catholics and catholics of the pick and choose mentality may rail against this concept until the cows come home but that is the reality. Fact. No amount of argument is going to change that reality."

It's not a fact though. I, and many like me, were good (ie loyal) catholics until they lost their faith. It IS a choice, to imply otherwise presents faith as a matter of fact when, by its very definition, it is in fact the polar opposite.

"I objected to the word "club" because I think it trivialises (I don't mean that rudely btw) it for me. It is bound up with my life in a way that no club could be. IT's not like the WI or something. I am a catholic culturally as well as in faith."

But that was rather the point I was highlighting. Catholicism as culture is precisely what Dawkins wasdriving at with his pithy observation regarding the chosen faith of children of te faithful.

It IS a big club; it's a club that you may choose to join (or your parents may choose for you) and you are free to leave at any point. It's not something inavoidable, like being a specific colour or being born in a specific country, and its only unifyuing factor is that, once you've joined, you call yourself a member of the club.

I love the line about not being like the WI: have you ever seen a gathering of priests for a weekend together??

I grew up around, with, alongside priests, nuns, religious types of all kinds (although largely and through the aegis of catholics; I went to church virtually every day; I truly know what it means to be a catholic through culture as well as/rather than via the vehicle of faith. I'm not treating it lightly when I compare it to a club; witness the fierce loyalty your average Newcastle United fan displays! And I certainly don't mean to offend you, seeing as you're cearly gracious enough to reply to my (often potentially flippant) posts with good grace.