Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that the catholic church are bloody immoral and need to be made answerable to the shit they seem to get away with?

606 replies

cupcakesandbunting · 24/08/2010 13:35

I am referring to this; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

and yes, I am totally aware that the police and government are to blame too but we expect governments and to an extent police, to be corrupt.

I am saying this as a RC too. I am fucking shocked at the amount of revolting crap that the church seem to get away with. Covering up paedophiles/abusers, bombers and who knows what else.

Why are they never made accountable?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 27/08/2010 00:28

Edam, if your theory is right, then what causes incest?

seeker · 27/08/2010 07:04

AN important thing to remember in all this "call to celibacy" talk that until quite recently, the priesthood was a career choice for many, as much as a calling. In many Irish families, for example, a lot of pressure would be put on the "clever" boy to go into the priesthood - it was a good atable profession, and the camily could bathe in reflected glory. My late father in law was the intended priest in his family, but he resisted, so the baton passed to his younger brother. Who, I may say, left the priesthood in some disgrace 25 years later after a string of affairs with women, which were known about and hushed up, by Church and family alike

My father in law regularly quoted a joke - two parents gazing into a cradle. The father says "We'll make little Patrick a priest, please God" The mother replies "We'll make little Patrick a priest, please God or not"

Roobie · 27/08/2010 07:48

Nowadays there is rigorous screening to check for genuine vocation, interviews with psychologists etc for men seeking entry into the priesthood. So the old traditional Irish family scenario whereby men are pushed into the priesthood is unlikely to happen.

Anyway, off for the weekend now so will not be contributing further this weekend....

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 07:58

Onestonetogo - Your statement is a bit too generalised to either prove or disprove I think! I agree that there have been evil people involved with religion, but that does not make religion evil.

Edam - Catholic teaching is that sexual intercourse should take place in a loving relationship between two consenting partners, at least that's what I was told on the Catholic pre-marriage guidance course I went on!

Seeker - "There is a real difference between preventing something from being and choosing not to cause something to be."

How can you say it does not make sense? It is the difference between not doing something and doing something and then doing something else to prevent the consequences (which is a much more long winded way of saying it!)

seeker · 27/08/2010 07:58

Absloutely. That is one of the reasons why there are far fewer men coming forward for the priesthood.

But it iimporatnt to remember that the background I outline is the background of many current parish priests, and definitely of many of the older men who form the current Church hierarchy.

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 08:09

Anyway, I've just realised that I haven't responded to the OP. I do not think it is reasonable to say that the church itself is immoral (ie. contrary to accepted moral principles) - the behaviour taught by the catholic church is pretty much in line with what I think most people would consider to be sound morals. However, there have certainly been people involved in the church who have acted extremely immorally.
Yes I would certainly agree that these people should be made answerable and accountable for everything they've done, but just because they are involved in the church does not mean the church should be accountable for their actions.

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 08:13

Seeker, I can definitely see your point regarding priests, perhaps it is a bit of an outdated way of doing things in an age where we are far less bound by duty and obligation. I think the church seems to be moving towards ordaining far more deacons (who can be married) due to the lack of Priests.I do believe there are a few people who are destined to be priests though, I know a few 'youngish' ones who are completely devoted to their vocation.

Marjoriew · 27/08/2010 08:17

I see no reason why the Church shouldn't be accountable. It has been instrumental in covering up decades of illegal activity within ita ranks.

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 08:21

Anyone involved in such cover ups should be made accountable too Marjoriew, but that is still not the whole church!

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 08:23

The Church is made up of its people. I really don't see why the 80 year old lady who sits behind me on a Sunday and has always tried her best to do good, follow church teaching and live an honest life, should be made to be accountable for anything!

seeker · 27/08/2010 08:24

But I though that every 'sex act' should have the potential to create life because sex for pleasure is a sin? So surely ensuting that you only have sex at the woman's infertile time is just as much "doing something" to prevent conception as using a condom?

You are still actively choosing not to create a baby - whther it's condoms or NFP.

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 08:28

Church teaching says that God gave us that infertile time as a gift for that particular purpose. So we're using something which is 'From God' rather than something created by man, which has the aim of preventing a life being formed. Also as I mentioned before NFP does not lend itself to casual relationships in the way that condoms do.

seeker · 27/08/2010 08:31

"Church teaching says that God gave us that infertile time as a gift for that particular purpose."

Where?

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 08:43

I have this book somewhere which gives relevant bible quotes etc.. and will try to dig it out... am losing the battle for the computer with those who want to be on cbbc though so may not be back straight away!

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 09:31

Am struggling to find my book (I think it's in a box still after our recent move!) but do have this taken directly from humanae vitae:

"The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile."

It states that it's OK to 'take advantage' of 'natural' cycles, which (according to the church) obviously come from God.

Not sure if that will be good enough for you Seeker Smile but I do have some better quotes/ sources in my other book if I can only find it (honest!) Have to go now though, will try and have another look tonight.

daftpunk · 27/08/2010 09:42

FBM;

I really like your posts. thank you for taking the time to provide so much good information.

seeker · 27/08/2010 12:26

So the logical extension of that is that it's only OK to use naturally occuring - or God created - medicines, not any that have been developed by human intelligence?

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 13:18

No, not really. It's not a 'medicine' after all, but a naturally occuring part of the reproductive cycle, it already happens anyway and it is just being used to our advantage. And also things developed by human intelligence are not wrong per se... it is just the intention for which they are created or the way in which they are used or the methods used to create them which might be considered wrong.

It's the reasoning behind it which is important, the difference between preventing something from being and choosing not to cause something to be... which I admit is a very fine line! By having sex in the normal way (even at a time when it is highly unlikely you will be fertile)you are still showing God that you would welcome a life if it really was his will to give you a baby at a specific time, you are trusting in him. Doing anything at all to prevent conception is showing the opposite, that you would not welcome a new life to be formed as a consequence of the act.

If you use a condom and the condom splits that is due to human error (it wasn't made properly). If you use NFP and you become pregnant at a time when it was 99.9% likely that you were infertile it is easier to see that the baby is God's will.

Thanks Daftpunk, but I normally expect a healthy 20 posts full of abuse after a compliment like that... that's why I love mumsnet, it keeps the sin of pride at bay Wink

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 13:32

Have been trying to think how to explain this better! suppose there was some natural herb you could take that would reduce the chance of conceiving, by taking that you would be saying to God, "I'm doing everything I can to stop a life being formed". By using NFP you are saying, "I am performing the act at a time when it is less likely for me to conceive, but I am still open to a new life forming if it is God's will"

Noellefielding · 27/08/2010 13:39

Haven't read whole thread but I would only add that I think you have to see the IRA violence of the early 70s as a response to the history of Catholics in Ireland over 100s of years. These deaths did happened in a historical context as you see in the Middle East today. It's not simple history. Or simple ethics on either side it's very very complex and murky.

The church imo have been horrifyingly guilty of protected the bad and hurting the innocent in history all the way back in time.

But, I also have seen very good people at work in the church, not just lay people. And I think there are good people throughout the organisation. That's irrefutable in my opinion. However bad an organisation is, it can still contain good people. Although that doesn't justify any abuse of course. I think it's important to see complexity and be balanced.

Snobear4000 · 27/08/2010 14:12

I can not say I care much for what God says about when and how I should be having sex. Chiefly, because I have never seen or heard any credible evidence for either God, Allah, Moses, Fairies, Father Christmas, The Rainbow Serpent, The Virgin Mary, Zeus, Dionysus, Aphrodite, Ra, Thoth or Peter Pan.

Neither has anyone in Africa, which is why the Pope and all the morons running the church should stop running about the globe telling everyone how to live. Especially when their advice on condoms directly leads to the further spread of HIV, and death, thus rendering the bishops and priests little more than highly organised murderers.

But you know, they've been killing people for thousands of years in the name of God so why stop now?

Snobear4000 · 27/08/2010 14:17

More news today where Catholic institutions have been beating and sexually abusing children:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11111216

It just goes on, day after day, it's like a tidal wave of people coming out and telling what happened to them at the hands of priests. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg.

mathanxiety · 27/08/2010 14:31

"The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God. "

Seeker, as far as medicine in general is concerned, this is the relevant guidance provided by the Catholic Church (albeit in the context of family planning -- but the general philosophy is the same)

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 14:40

That's fair enough Snobear, completely your choice what you believe in obviously. I just wanted to point out (as I did earlier) is that the church's stance is that sex should not take place outside of marriage - that is the ideal that it's followers are supposed to live up to. The church does not tell people to use condoms because they are actually asking them to do something which would do even more than condoms to prevent the spread of HIV.

I agree completely that anyone who has abused children should be brought to justice, I don't think you'll find anyone on here who wouldn't agree with that.. The point is there are still a lot of good people who are Catholics and they should not all be tarred with the same brush.

FreddoBaggyMac · 27/08/2010 15:10

I'm interested to know what it is that people think Catholics whose faith is important to them should do? Should we just 'give it up' or convert to c of E???

Isn't the only realistic option to have a complete spring clean, bring all the bad stuff out into the open...? Exactly what Pope Benedict has said he wants to do.