to think that ADHD/ADD is a load of nonsense?

[Breton1900]

Are we really producing ever more kids with these conditions or do parents simply need to take back control and realise that, at times, all kids can be obnoxious, loud, defiant, restless and fidgety and that strictly enforced rules for behaviour, lots of TLC, and the occasional smack on the bum may be the way forward?

Riven I was going to comment on that US post a few pages ago: of course it IS diagnosed in the US, but I wouldn't say it's diagnosed any more than it is here. It is VERY difficult to GET a diagnosis...lots of paperwork, red tape...it really can take up to a year for a child to get services. I don't have any evidence to back this up, per se, but as a former middle grades teacher in the US, and a good friend has just been through the process with her DS, that's all I've got...

Obviously, my experience isn't representative of the whole of the US,but in the 10 years I was in a classroom, I probably had 1 kid in 60 (out of 95 or so students) per year with an actual diagnosis, and not all of those were medicated.

I'm glad it's not being classed as purely an American disorder...that's just fuel for the fire for the numpties like Breton over here...

Now if we have all calmed down perhaps we could discuss this without resorting to personal abuse and gutter language.

In Britain there are increasing numbers of children being diagnosed with ADHD/ADD/ODD and other various conditions. Contrary to what many on this board may think there is NO direct evidence that such conditions actually exist as diseases. I am concerned that many of these children may be being wrongly diagnosed and that consequently vast numbers of young people are daily being administered extremely powerful drugs with some serious side-effects and potentially unknown long-term effects because those children have yet to reach adulthood.

It also follows that many of the "definitions" listed for ADHD in fact relate to very normal behaviour in children.

In the USA, the DSM IV lists 18 defining behaviours for ADHD none of which is pathological per se.

It should also be remembered that neither psychology nor psychiatry are exact sciences in the way as are the so called "hard" sciences of physics, chemistry and biology which, apart from some of the more esoteric aspects of theoretical physics, rest on physical evidence.

Although this discussion was published in 2000 the two protagonists make some interesting comments.

why are you concerned about this? How many people do you know with ADHD/ADD who you feel are wrongly diagnosed?

I don't think there can be any sensible argument to say that ADHD doesn't exist but I personally feel that it is massively over-diagnosed where children are from an unstable home or have parents who never say no and couldn't discipline a goldfish?
Otherwise why is it so easy to predict which parents the supposedly- adhd kids belong to ?

As for the accuracy in defining psychiatric disorders, I'm sure that Riven is aware of a 1972 study undertaken in the US and written up and published by D L Rosenhan in Science Vol 179 (70).

It wasn't "miscontrued" and I don't care how light-hearted it was meant as I still don't take it in the same spirit, nor do many here.

cornsillkk I want to know that, too??

Breton you are dodging a lot of questions about why you are interested in this, what your qualifications are to address a few of the things you've mentioned, and how many people you know personally who are afflicted.

Can you please answer some of these questions, please? Also, what IS your experience with someone who has been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD?

Breton, thank God I read this, thanks for enlightening me.

Previously I (stupidly) believed the Consultants, and the guy who was a specialist in children with neurological disorders at our local hospital, who told me that my daughter, who also has CP, epilepsy, hydrocephalus etc etc as a result of a massive brain haemorrhage as a baby, had ADHD, after extensive and lengthy testing. (Christ, that brain EEG under anaesthetic was a waste of cash from the public purse, eh? Because the NHS dish those out to anyone these days. My apologies)

Now, thanks to you, I realise this is total bollocks. So I have just locked her in her bedroom and told her to sort herself out and stop misbehaving.

I have also ordered a hairshirt from Amazon, and will put it on as soon as it arrives, to teach myself a lesson for being such a shit parent.

what an odd post katie. None of the kids I know diagnosed with ADHD are from an unstable home. Many have siblings without behavioural disorders as well.

I'm not sure a 1972 study will be that relevant breton. DSM has changed considerably since then.

I am quite calm actually.
My thinking you are a twat is not a sign of hysteria.
I can be calm and think you a twat at the same time.
I can multitask like that

Breton, who is claiming that ADHD, ADD or ODD are diseases? Are you imagining that people think they are catching or something?

They are Disorders. That's what the Ds at the end stand for.

A Syndrome is a collection of symptoms that appear together in an individual. A Disorder is a collection of behaviours that are exhibited by an individual.

Just seen your post too Katiestar. So what do you think my background is, if it's so easy to predict?

and a sense of deja-vu. OP did you think to search for this topic before starting another thread on it? Just think of all the time people are wasting setting out the same old arguments.

katiestar: I think you may have a very valid point.

The other point to be borne in mind is that certainly in the US and, increasingly in the UK, there is now a growing and financially lucrative market offering counselling, dietary advice, behavioural management, support networks, and of course large amount of prescription drugs, to alleviate and deal with these various conditions.

I'm not claiming that certain psychiatric disorders do not exist but as no one has yet provided conclusive evidence that a disease called ADHD exists should we be automatically assuming that children have this condition?

well as already explained above it isn't a 'disease'.

What on earth are you going on about. Support networks? And that's a problem because.....?

Do you have any evidence that children are rattling around full of prescription drugs or have you just been reading the Daily Mail again?

Lets not discuss it bret.

if it doesnt affect you, then why do you want to know anyway?

lets not answer any questions posted by the op.

whos with me

There was a radio program on this recently, and how DSM IV took out or revised Asperger's or Autism? can't remember which one. Was it, 'All in the Mind?'

DSM V - it's chucking everything under one umbrella diagnosis. I don't particularly agree with that as I think that there needs to be more recognition that these are many different conditions, with different causes etc.

Good idea tiredmum

My son has ADHD and this is NOT a disease Breton. He is also autistic but that's not a disease either but rather a complex social communication problem which affects his ability to understand and relate to others socially. The ADHD is very much the minor issue as far as I am concerned and he is not on any medication. I am not bothered whether you believe in it or not - I know what being my DS's parent is like and you don't. Tbh it's judgemental people like you who make me hesitate before going shopping (oh how I try NOT to take DS).
If it matters I have ADHD too - I hold down a job and my issues have definitely improved through coping mechanisms atc.

Oh do fuck off Breton.

I have ADHD and I'd like you to come and live a day in my life, or one when I was growing up and then you can see how real it is and how difficult it makes life for people who have it and their families. You clearly don't know what you are talking about and you are upsetting people. What the hell's it got to do with you anyway? What a stupid, insensitive, ignorant OP.

i havent read all this thread cos it will wind me up but op have you ever spent a day/ or week looking after a child like that!

believe me many of the parents of children diagnosed with such conditions pray that it could just be sorted out with good disapline.

I have M.E./CFS.

There is no test for that, only diagnosed by a process of elimination. Does that mean that I actually have nothing wrong with me and I am a bit lazy?

Have actually had parents suggest their secondary child is a bit ADHD if they have been badly behaved which annoys me because a) it's an excuse, they're only mentioning now(!) and are they really saying they prefer their child to have a lifelong condition than accept they've misbehaved, as children do on occasion c) it's an insult to those who do have ADHD d) it suggests bad behaviour and ADHD are one and the same.

BalloonSlayer: See my earlier comments on psychiatry and psychology. They are not exact sciences.

EveWasFramed72: In response to your question I am interested in this because I feel that we are in serious danger of over-medicalizing behaviour that is really quite normal for all small children but in today's child centred world there is a reluctance to confront certain behaviours head-on. One only has observe parents and children to realise that many parents have some serious problems with their own behaviour and their parenting skills. And no I'm not making a generalisation about "chavs" and "sink estates"!

I also find the growing tendency to stick a medical label on anything and everything that is outside of a perceived "norm" rather worrying.

Based on my own experiences I am also concerned for growing numbers of children who increasingly view themselves as stigmatized or a "victim" of something beyond their control. Such lack of confidence leads to low achievement and feelings of inadequacy.

The flip side of the above is that, again, based on my own experience, there is an increasing tendency amongst some individuals to wear their "disorder" as a badge of pride and as an excuse!

So, shall I tell my daughter, who has cerebral palsy as well as ADHD that she should stop using CP as an 'excuse', get out of her wheelchair and start walking?