to think that ADHD/ADD is a load of nonsense?

[Breton1900]

Are we really producing ever more kids with these conditions or do parents simply need to take back control and realise that, at times, all kids can be obnoxious, loud, defiant, restless and fidgety and that strictly enforced rules for behaviour, lots of TLC, and the occasional smack on the bum may be the way forward?

oh and that must be why my 11 year old can't talk. He's wearing his disorder as a badge of pride and an excuse.

Silly me.

I think I cross posted with Saintly!

I am shocked all i can say is

"BalloonSlayer: See my earlier comments on psychiatry and psychology. They are not exact sciences."

Sorry what's that got to do with anything? I was challenging your statement that people on this board think that ADHD, ADD and ODD are diseases. Please address that point.

Have you ever met a child with a dx of ADHD who wears it as a badge with pride? Have you really? Honestly? (or adult as you consistantly have ignored everyhing I have said and sem to struggle with the concept that ADHD is a condition which is not restricted to children).

TBH I don't believe you and it's a total load of rubbish. Everything that you're saying in fact. It's all meaningless

"Based on my own experiences I am also concerned for growing numbers of children who increasingly view themselves as stigmatized or a "victim" of something beyond their control. Such lack of confidence leads to low achievement and feelings of inadequacy. "

What experiences? What have you experienced that makes you so concerned about these growing numbers of children? Do you really know loads of kids with ADHD who have crippling low confidence and are chronically under achieving? Do you know any adults affected in this way? Do explain these experiences you've had, please.

Have you actually had any such experiences, or is it all just meaningless jargon and drivel?

"I feel that we are in serious danger of over-medicalizing behaviour that is really quite normal for all small children "

The WHOLE BLOODY POINT is that children who get diagnosed with ADHD (as opposed to being called hyperactive by their grandparents because they are a bit too lively for them to cope with) exhibit behaviour which is NOT "quite normal for all small children."

Why do you not get this?

Do you seriously think that after a Sunday afternoon cooped up with bored kids who make a bit of a mess we are all queueing outside the Doctors demanding an ADHD diagnosis?

You clearly have never met a child with ADHD.

Breton1900 I am not in the mood for arguments today, so I am not going to have a go at you. I know that it can seem very 'convenient' that a name can be given to a colllection of 'symptoms' that might otherwise be labelled as 'naughty'.

I know a boy with ASD. His parents were both professionals with very responsible jobs.

I have a daughter with (as yet undiagnosed) ADHD. She has plenty of other diagnoses to keep her going. We are one of the fortunate ones, who have had an MRI which shows her brain malformation. A phyical structural malformation.

When she started preschool at 2.6, the preschool were so concerned about DD1 that they did an 'activity map'. They drew a representational drawing of the room layout, then plotted DD1's movements over a 30 minute period. The map was just a chaotic web of movements. In 2 minutes she had visited over 6 locations, and it showed that she was quite literally a whirlwind of activity.

Her Ed Psych noted that she can't stay on task for more than 30 seconds without adult intervention. Literally.

The really interesting thing is that the Head of the Special School she is starting in September said "You can see the ADD a mile off". I asked her if it mattered that she had no official dx of ADD, and her reply countered everything of your OP, Breton1900.

Her reply was "No, it makes no difference. We treat the child, not the diagnosis. If she needs interventions that would suit a child with ADD, that is what she gets. The only time a dx is relevant is if a parent needs that dx to access particular help. Otherwise, it means nothing."

ADD/ADHD are real conditions with real symptoms and have a real impact on those who live with it and their families. I would wager that 99% of them would rather lose the diagnosis if meant that they lost the difficulties.

If my ds had any comprehension of his disorder then I doubt very much he would see it as a badge of pride.
I imagine he hates the anxiety, the isolation, the confusion and the depression just as much as I do.
I can't ask him though because he wouldn't understand any of those emotions and he doesn't talk.
I don't imagine that your solution of an occasional slapped bum would help address the issue.
Then again I could be imagining his difficulties, he could be pretending and the team of specialists that gave him his dx were obviously deluded.

Great post Lougle

BalloonSlayer:
I didn't state that "people on this board think that ADHD, ADD and ODD are diseases."

I realise that this system is not the best one available for internet chat boards but if you look at what I wrote you will see that I actually typed was:

"Isn't it rather deceitful to claim a biological cause for a supposed disorder that has not been validated as a disease?
"ADHD is a genetically determined condition that affects the parts of the brain which control impulses, concentration, and attention" (quoted from Check-Up BBC Radio 4 on 23 August 2007).
Where is the evidence to support that statement?"

In other words I was referring to the Radio 4 presenter's automatic assumption that ADHD is a genetically determined condition (i.e. biological in origin) when there is not a shred of evidence to support that contention.

Oh asdx2 the anxiety DD1 is just a ball of anxiety. She gets so anxious about everything. This morning, we left for church, and despite it being only a 1.5 minute drive (literally), I was bombarded with questions about whether we were going the right way, which church were we going to (the only one we attend), whether she would be able to go upstairs, were we sure we were going the right way, could she come too, etc., etc.

She just can't cope with life. It is awful that a 4 year old can be so anxious, and there is very little we can do to change it.

Lougle is it not conceivably possible that your child's behaviour is the result of physical malfunction of the brain and is not ADHD/ADD?

Reading through some of the replies it seems that the label ADHD is given to parents/children by the professionals to explain numerous different problems and/or behaviour.

In fact I'm beginning to wonder if the professionals are using it as a "catch-all" to explain anything about which they are uncertain.

"Although the specific cause of ADHD has been relatively elusive, recent advances in research methods and technology have helped us to find some of the neurobiological correlates with ADHD. This research into the cause of ADHD, is focus on neural circuits centered in the prefrontal cortex and striatum, as well as on the brain stem catecholamine systems that innervate this circuitry. Information from neural imaging studies suggest that impairments in these prefrontal-striatal regions may play a key role in determining the cause of ADHD.

Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) have identified subtle abnormal changes in the prefrontal cortex and basal ganglia unique to ADHD. Findings of a smaller right prefrontal cortex, in addition to a smaller caudate nucleus and globus pallidus, in children with ADHD suggest the possibility that there may be some association with fewer prefrontal corticostriatal fibers and less pallidal feedback to prefrontal regions of the brain. Also, the reduced area in the corresponding anterior genu region of the corpus callosum may indicate the presence of fewer interhemispheric fibers in prefrontal regions. Abnormalities have also been found in ADHD regions that project to the prefrontal cortex, including the parietal-occipital regions, and the cerebellum. These findings raise the possibility that brain abnormalities in ADHD extend beyond the prefrontal cortex and striatum to the posterior and subcortical regions that innervate these frontal circuits.

Some of these neuroimaging studies have provided some additional evidence of prefrontal-striatal impairment in ADHD. Research with single photon emission computerized tomography (SPECT) and positron emission tomography (PET) have reported that there may be lower basal activity in the prefrontal cortex and striatum of children and adults, but not adolescents with ADHD. More recent studies of the cause of ADHD employing functional MRI, have tentatively identified altered prefrontal-striatal activation with deficits in an individual?s control of inhibition. Reduced striatal activation during response inhibition tasks have been consistently reported in children and adolescents with this disease. However, prefrontal activation during the same tasks was enhanced in children with ADHD, but reduced in adolescents with this disorder.

The prefrontal cortex and striatum are believed to be very sensitive to catecholaminergic input from the brain stem nuclei, including noradrenaline (NA) from the locus coeruleus, and dopamine (DA) from the ventral tegmental area and substantia nigra. The fact that almost all medications which work in individuals with ADHD affect the levels of noradrenaline and dopamine transmission, suggests that perturbations of these systems may play a significant role in the cause of ADHD. However, a large group of studies of the catecholamine function in ADHD have continued to yield highly inconsistent findings. Only more recent studies that used central indices of catecholamine function that examined more homogenous subgroups of children with ADHD, have provided evidence of dopamine and noradrenaline dysfunction which is believed to possibly be a cause of ADHD."

Although they aren't sure what causes ADHD, I think that the presence of MRI features which are unique to individuals with ADHD implies that there is a biological basis for the condition.

MS is not well understood, nor Lupus. They don't get challenges to the biological basis of their existence.

Reference for the above

Very true, Riven. Lots of conditions are like that.

Looks like the OP didn't like The Science Bit.

No, Science is to the OP as urine is to a bonfire. Just no fun.

Breton1900,
Please take your concerns for all these"poor dc inflicted with ADHD" and put them where t he sun dont shine.
If you have never spent time with a dc with ADHD and seen the significant impact it has not only on the dc but for those caring for that dc, you dont know what you are talking about. Noone, but noone with ADHD wears this disability as a badge of pride. But, the condition has been vilified in the Media and the medication criticised often. I cant think of another condition where you would be having this discussion and where parents/carers continually are bashed for doing the best they can for their dc.
Your ignorance is astounding. ADHD is NOT a recent condition-Einstein is reported to have had ADHD, though it would not have been called that then. However, the symptoms were the same.
According to the most recent SIGN and NICE guidlines the condition is in fact Under reported and there should be many more dc diagnosed-at least with the more severe symptoms-and this will have a big impact in schools, health and Social Work.
You are offensive, not only to the carers of these dc, but the dc themselves who are stigmatised enough in society without you adding to it. Fuck Off!

ADHD is not normal child behaviour, though. That's what makes it different. And, if you were actually paying attention to those of us who have experience with it, it is not diagnosed likely...there are mountains of paperwork, observations (by medical people as well as teachers and parents), and not all children with ADHD are given medication.

There are more cases diagnosed now than many years ago because it is a recognised disorder now, which it wasn't back then...there have been studies done, and there is some indication based on these studies that ADHD is not just little kids being little kids. Imagine those of us who weren't diagnosed because back then, it WAS just believed that we were naughty and ill bahaved. You want to talk about having low self confidence? Try being told by every teacher every day how horrible you behave in class, how you can't focus, can't pay attention. It sucks. I would much rather have had a reason why I couldn't focus the way other kids could...at least then I could have had some support in how to deal with it.

As for the students I have taught who have had diagnosed ADHD; NONE of them felt stigmatised or different than their peers. They knew what they needed in order to learn successfully in my classroom, and I was more than happy to help them. In many ways, they had to be MORE mature than their peers, because they had to take responsibility for how they learned best. As for medication being a form of 'social' control...such bullshit, it's unbelievable. I have had students who made the decision to try life without medication, and I would support that unquestioningly every time. Yes, they were a bit more challenging in some cases, but I'd never want a student drugged just because I didn't want to do my job.

I am hiding this thread now, because you are a troll, and I'm really upset. You've started this thread intentionaly to wind people up for no fucking reason. You are a twat.

Perhaps all concerned parents could in future consult the OP, who will no doubt dispense an accurate diagnosis and treatment (smack on the bum, perhaps?)

And the beauty of this is no waiting rooms or long journeys - OP will have the answer from a few lines describing your child on an internet forum!

"I also find the growing tendency to stick a medical label on anything and everything that is outside of a perceived "norm" rather worrying."

If you'd had any first hand experience of the above, one of the first things you would've learned is that anyone can give a "label", whereas actual diagnoses by qualified pracitioners are very difficult to come by, either through lack of expertise or reseources in the area or, if anything, sharing your concerns.

"The flip side of the above is that, again, based on my own experience, there is an increasing tendency amongst some individuals to wear their "disorder" as a badge of pride and as an excuse!"

Again, it always seems to be those who are fortunate enough not to have any experience of which they speak who are happy to call it an excuse.

Oh joy, SalFresco! And I am sure she will do it for free as she is worried about us all being ripped off, as I quote;

'The other point to be borne in mind is that certainly in the US and, increasingly in the UK, there is now a growing and financially lucrative market offering counselling, dietary advice, behavioural management, support networks, and of course large amount of prescription drugs, to alleviate and deal with these various conditions.'

Oh how lucky we are. Happy days.