I found a pair of judgey pants I never knew I had...

[strawberrycake]

Just had a girls night in, talking about how we make up formula and getting into the usual debate about how to do it. I don't really care much..until my mate said 'I just make the batch in the morning and leave it out on the side in the kitchen so I know it'll be at room temperature when she wants it'. My judgey pants came and found me, I get that there's a million and one ways to do it...but that's just going too far isn't it? So for the first time ever I told someone how I think they should bring up their own child. Simply because I rather like the child and don't want harm. AIBU to temporarily morph into one of those women who actually cares how others parent? Or is it always a no no?

For the record I said (with surprise)

"You can't do that, it's so unhealthy..do blah blah' and stuff along those lines.

Yes - but the advice from the Food Standards Agency to ensure water is around 70 degrees is the boil 1 litre of water and leave to cool in the kettle for 30 minutes.

That is what my "experiment" proved.

This is the reason for the 30 mins info on standarf formula packs. Unfortunately the formula companies are too fucking arrogant to also print that the water should be 70 degrees because their product is not sterile. Of course they should also explain that 1 litre of water left for 30 mins in most kettles will be about right.

The advice about the 1 litre was in a press release from the FSA in about February this year. It followed some research commissioned by the FSA. See here.

Riven, what kind of formula does your daughterhave?

Riven don't panic please. .

Remember that what I am saying relates to standard formulas.

I will try to find something re water not being to hot etc.

these are the online instructions for ketotal

Preparation and Administration

The recommended dilution is 1 in 5 i.e. 20g plus 80ml to yield a final volume of 100ml. For a less concentrated feed a 1 in 7 dilution can be used, i.e. 20g plus 120ml water to yield a final volume of 140ml. The volume of feed may need to be increased gradually over several days to minimise the risk of any possible gastrointestinal symptoms.
For tube or sip feeding:

1. Measure the required amount of warm water into a container that seals with a screw top lid. Ketocal must be made up with hot water (45 ? 500C or 1130 ? 1220F) to fully dissolve. Measure the temperature using a thermometer or mix freshly boiled water and cold tap water in a 1 : 1 ratio to achieve this temperature.
2. Add the prescribed amount of Ketocal to the water.
3. Whisk or shake vigorously until the powder is completely dissolved
4. Remove the lid carefully. Chill in a refrigerator if desired and use within 24 hours of preparation.
5. Stir before use.

On standing, some settling of Ketocal may occur which is a normal feature of the product. This settling should not block an enteral tube however it is recommended that the tube is flushed with water between each feed. Carbohydrate ? free flavourings may be added to the reconstituted product to taste based on individual preference.

sounds to me like you are making it up as per the manufacturers instructions riven

OK - I remembered the Irish FSA have a brilliant guide to formula preparation.

Download from here you need to click on "Guidance Note 22".

From page 13:

"The higher the temperature of the water used to make PIF, the greater the degradation of essential nutrients. However, the water should be at a sufficiently high temperature to kill harmful bacteria.The use of a thermometer is the most accurate method to ensure that the most effective balance is achieved between these two risks.Water should never be used below 70°C."

NB whilst they are talking about thermometers that page in particular relates to care settings.

Riven

"do not use boiling water to prepare formula that has not been cooled or had cold water added to acheve 45 - 50 degrees C?"

I also found the Ketocal preparation instructions here.

It means either use boiling water which has been cooled to 45- 50 or use boiling water and add cool water in a mixture as per info above.

It's not loads of info though on the website because it doesn't explain if it has to be stored chilled - not does it explain why tap water is ok. I suppose you could always store some cooled boiled water.

you can buy them from cook shops or art places riven

there is one here

We have an infra red thermometer which DH had for DIY.

(Balancing the temps in the radiators) .

So I snaffled it for formula feeding experiments.

They are about £20 odd pounds.

If you would like to borrow ours I will gladly send it to you and you can do some experiments and then just post it back in a couple of weeks

Or if you'd like to set me an experiment I will do one later.

Hopefully you can just follow the 1-1 ratio?

Are you still going to talk to dietician?

Gosh MovingBeds that one you linked to has appauling reviews. Plus you'd have to sterilise it and make sure it wasn't breaking etc.

sorry, i didn't read the reviews don't buy that one then etc etc

This thread isn't about FF/BF. I would think anyone who left expressed BM on the counter all day and then fed it to their baby was mad as well.

Same as if someone left the normal milk on the counter and then wanted to make me a cup of tea with it. Yuck. My gut can probably handle it with all the shit it has had thrown at it over the years, but a little baby's stomach is not going to be able to kill off the bacteria as effectively.

Sorry posted that without realising there was another page and that the convo had moved on!

I have always used water a few minutes after boiling - now worried that I am destroying nutrients?! I just imagined that something that was made from 'dead' ingredients in powder form would not degrade with hot temperatures. I mean, how did they get it into a powder in the first place ?

For what it is worth, the ingredients on Cow and Gate do warn that powder isn't sterile, and the instructions are such that so long as it's a litre or more of water the formula will be safe if they are followed.

StrikeUpTheBand - out of interest why did you not wonder why the packet says to wait for 30 minutes?

Genuine interest, not having a go.

I think that there should be far far more information either on the packet or on an insert - like you get with a medecine.

Or every Mum should be given a comprehensive leaflet and talk.

MmeLindt if you are still reading.

I'm interested in whether you were in Switzerland when your DS had salmonella and if so what the formula feeding advice was then and now.

The reason I ask is that I was on a thread recently where someone in Switzerland and someone in another European country were all about the fact that the UK has adopted the WHO guidelines.

Thanks Tabouleh, that has answered my question.

Re your Q to Strike...I always thought they said wait 30 mins so you didn't scald yourself/your baby and blame them - in a 'Caution this hot coffee cup contains a hot drink' arse-covering type of way.

Not sure what is sadder about that really - me for being a bit of a dipstick, or the fact that we get so many blatantly patronising instructions about every day things that we are now immune to proper, serious instructions...

Tabouleh
I was in Germany at the time. The advice was at that time to make up the bottles with boiling water, and let it cool. Then a Midwife said that I could make the bottles up with cooled water. Not sure if that was an official recommendation or just one person who had always done it that way.

MmeLindt - thanks! That's the same as the UK then.

When you get back to Switzerland, if you get a chance, I'd really appreciate it if you'd be able to find a link to any official German or Swiss guidance (in German is fine - I have basic German and can translate - but googling something like that in German is beyond me).

I'm trying to find out the official positions of various countries.

tabalouh
Found this website, which is a general advice website, not official and it says to boil the water then cool to 50°. This website is a partner from Fem. magazine.

That was the first hit on googling, "flashennahrung zubereiten.

General info from Nestle but no mention of temperature.

After a bit of searching on the website, I transferred to their product page website where the recommendation is ") Benötigte Wassermenge abkochen, auf etwa 40°C abkühlen und ca. die Hälfte in die Flasche geben."

I also found this pdf from the Midwife Association in Thuringen which also advocates 40°

Milupa also states 40°

Humana has it right

As does Hipp

That is pretty shocking.

I have a friend who works in the business, I will ask her about it.

Tabouleh
Sorry, just noticed that I completely murdered your name.

I have blogged about this, and am going to write to Nestle and the German Health Minister (not sure who is responsible, not easy to google that one).