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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

I found a pair of judgey pants I never knew I had...

152 replies

strawberrycake · 07/08/2010 22:25

Just had a girls night in, talking about how we make up formula and getting into the usual debate about how to do it. I don't really care much..until my mate said 'I just make the batch in the morning and leave it out on the side in the kitchen so I know it'll be at room temperature when she wants it'. My judgey pants came and found me, I get that there's a million and one ways to do it...but that's just going too far isn't it? So for the first time ever I told someone how I think they should bring up their own child. Simply because I rather like the child and don't want harm. AIBU to temporarily morph into one of those women who actually cares how others parent? Or is it always a no no?

For the record I said (with surprise)

"You can't do that, it's so unhealthy..do blah blah' and stuff along those lines.

OP posts:
ChippingIn · 08/08/2010 12:18

Al1son - you are missing the point, yes the bottles need to be clean and you should wash your hands first of course - but there can be nasty bacteria in the dry powder - so you need to mix it with water over 70 degrees to kill it.

MumNWLondon Sun 08-Aug-10 10:19:22

OP: I wonder whats safer - mixing powder with cool water and serving immediately or making in advance with water at 70C and leaving on the side all day. Do any of us acutally know????

That's like asking if it's safer to run in front of a bus or a taxi????

Riven - is it possible to get your DD's 'feed' in a ready made, single use, carton? It's how we used to get my godsons when he needed it, it made it much more portable.

sarah293 · 08/08/2010 12:25

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slouchingtowardswaitrose · 08/08/2010 12:41

Riven, can you take/give the school a flask of just boiled water, a bottle of cooled boiled water, and the feed powder, to mix while out/themselves?

Al1son · 08/08/2010 12:49

ChippingIn - Riven makes it up with boiling water. It does still need to be chilled afterwards because a few stray bacteria on anything can start growing once it's cooled.

Riven - if you make it with boiling water and cool it quickly by standing the bottle in cold water for a while before you leave it should be fine in a bag with a decent sized ice-pack fro the morning.

Ignore your DH. The manufacturer's instructions are there for a reason.

sarah293 · 08/08/2010 12:50

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ChippingIn · 08/08/2010 13:43

Al1son - where did I say Riven didn't need to keep it chilled? Why do you feel I need a lecture on bacteria? I have been saying that on 3 threads for 3 days!?! I asked Riven if she could get a ready made feed for her DD as we used to get one for my godson (on prescription) and when you can it makes life easier.

Riven when you are out and about take the powder (pre measured) in her bottle/cup and ask for some boiling water, mix about 1/3 of the normal water to make the powder liquid and top it up with cold water (pre boiled if it's necessary for DD). Even if you aren't eating in there, most cafes will oblige. I presume she doesn't like it cold? If she did, just make it up at home, chill it right off and keep it in a cool bag. Ignorance can be bliss - but knowledge is power :)

sarah293 · 08/08/2010 14:28

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Original poster
strawberrycake · 08/08/2010 14:40

Riven-sorry! I have the same issue, prescribed milk which must be made up that way. Personally I use another old bottle that's now too small as an icepack, after chilling the bottle quickly in the sink then fridge. I've always managed to find a way of heating it so far, noone seems to say no to water to plonk a baby bottle in. In desperation though I have also to warm in:
left it on the car bonnet for five min
hugged it for 10 min (brrr)
simply left it out in heat for a short while
Blush see I'm not perfect....

OP posts:
Al1son · 08/08/2010 15:06

Chill Chippingin! I didn't miss any points and I wasn't trying to lecture you! You don't need to go for the jugular like that.

I think we're both trying to make the same point that leaving bottles of milk at room temp is not a good idea and it's worth saying something even if we're accused of being judgy. I don't want to argue.

Riven, Asda were selling ice-packs at a really good price a couple of weeks ago. Might be worth a visit if you've a local one. I would expect school to work with you on this one as they have a responsibility to ensure that the food they give children has been stored safely.

ChippingIn · 08/08/2010 18:09

alison - if you think that's going for the jugular you need to hang out on AIBU more :) I simply asked why I was the recipient of your lecture on bacteria as I hadn't given you any cause to be. However, yes we do agree milk left out is dangerous and people should speak up and explain why. I think part of the problem is that people don't see formula as a milk and treat it like a non dairy item.

Riven - sorry, I couldn't remember if you were tube feeding or not. We had to tube feed as well, the first type we had we could get in ready made cartons (single use) which was brilliant, the other one we had to use powder and just made it up before we went out and kept it in a cool bag.

MumNWLondon · 08/08/2010 19:02

MumNWLondon Sun 08-Aug-10 10:19:22

OP: I wonder whats safer - mixing powder with cool water and serving immediately or making in advance with water at 70C and leaving on the side all day. Do any of us acutally know????

"That's like asking if it's safer to run in front of a bus or a taxi????"

Not really, running in front of either a taxi or bus is actually dangerous. Mixing formula with cold water carries a very very small risk that quite rightly most of us choose not to take. But before the new guidelines both DD and DS1 had formula for 6 months (from 6 months to 1 year) always mixed with cool water, 4 bottles a day so thats over 1000 bottles and neither of them got ill. Lucky perhaps but not sure if you'd be so lucky if you ran in front of a bus over 1000 times.

Also don't we all send dairy products like cheese sandwiches or yogurt in our DC's packed lunch? Is this so different from leaving formula out on side all day?

Al1son · 08/08/2010 19:24

Doesn't everyone put ice-packs in their children's lunchboxes?

I was told on a food hygiene course that any food which is supposed to be refrigerated should never be left at room temperature for long periods. A sandwich with a very few food poisoning bacteria in it is harmless when refrigerated but if it is left at room temperture for 2 hours the bacteria will have multiplied to dangerous levels. This applies to food in lunch boxes which I guess will be left for 3 hours min.

I put a frozen bottle of water and a frozen yoghurt in my DD's lunchbox every day. The drink is mostly defrosted by lunchtime and the food is kept cool. It's no hassle.

Even if a risk is very small, if the hazard is as nasty as food poisoning doesn't it make sense to eliminate it? It's not hard to do.

sarah293 · 08/08/2010 19:57

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MumNWLondon · 08/08/2010 20:00

No never used an icepack in packed lunch.

ChippingIn · 08/08/2010 20:10

MumNWLondon
^MumNWLondon Sun 08-Aug-10 10:19:22

OP: I wonder whats safer - mixing powder with cool water and serving immediately or making in advance with water at 70C and leaving on the side all day. Do any of us acutally know????^

My previous comparison was between the taxi (cold water mixing) & the bus (leaving it on the side) not between cold water mixing and running in front of a bus!!!

However, as you clearly found that too difficult to understand, let me say it more clearly... BOTH are dangerous it is not worth asking which is worse because both are dangerous and avoidable!!

Riven you can get really cute little palm size ones in animals shapes that hardly weigh anything :)

welliemum · 08/08/2010 20:24

Leaving bottles at room temperature and the 70 degrees advice are two separate things though.

The risk from leaving bottles out at room temperature is with bugs in the environment. Most of those will be harmless, a few will be harmful. With the harmful ones, the critical thing is how long the milk is brewing after the bug starts replicating, because they grow exponentially. So 24 hours out of the fridge is much, much more risky than a just a morning.

The 70 degree advice is about a bug which has been found in formula powder all over the world. Very, very rarely it causes an infection in babies, but the catch is that the infection is deadly - it's not just a tummy bug.

As I understand it, the bug is a new pathogen, so parents making up formula a few years ago wouldn't have had the same risk.

MrsDrOwenHunt · 08/08/2010 20:33

shit i hadnt thought of the lunchbox thing either, now i should worry!! i and i say this quite truthfully dont like to see a newborn with a bottle but i would never say anything because its the womans right to chose just because i bf doesnt mean everyone has to.

ChippingIn · 08/08/2010 20:33

Yes, they are two different dangers - equally avoidable, there is NO point in asking which is worse, it isn't an either or!!! You don't need to do either

MmeLindt · 08/08/2010 20:46

For anyone saying that the 70°C guideline is not really important, or that the risk is so small, I can tell you about my DS.

He contracted salmonella poisoning when he was 5mths old. It could only have come from the formula because he was not weaned at the time.

This was before the recommendation was changed.

He was lucky in that it was a relatively mild case, and because I was a bit PFBish about the DC when they had diarrhoea and took him straight to the doc, it was diagnosed early. He was put on anti-biotics and recovered well.

Salmonella can be extremely dangerous for babies.

There are ways of making up the formula safely, I cannot understand why anyone would risk it for the sake of convenience.

OP
you were quite right to call your friend on it.

welliemum · 08/08/2010 20:48

And I'm puzzled about cheese and yoghurt - they were evolved over millennia as a way of keeping milk safe and edible before the invention of fridges. They keep longer in the fridge, OK, but why would they suddenly become a hazard at room temperature?

MumNWLondon · 08/08/2010 21:01

The point I was making is that in RL many many people make up bottles with cooled water (saw someone doing this today), I see this all the time, yet I am guessing its much rarer to see someone leaving formula out all day. Would the OP have said anything if the person had said she mixed up the formula with cool water and served it immediately? Should we all be saying something?

I know its different from someone jumping in from of bus Hmm.

I still think we are all judgemental about different things and its generally not acceptible to comment on others parenting decisions.

PassMeTheKleenex · 08/08/2010 21:24

So at the risk of sounding like a dimwit...if you're not going to make each bottle up individually, as you need it, you should make them all and put them in the fridge, then warm as needed?

Al1son · 08/08/2010 21:49

I guess that's true welliemum. Although can we say they were safe or were they saf er which is very different when discussing babies and small children. Many many people used to drink unpasteurised milk and have no ill effects but I wouldn't give it to my children now.

We all have to make the judgement which is right for us and we'll make it with the information available to us at the time. I'm glad I understand more about how bacteria behave since the food hygiene course. I don't worry more about hygiene in my kitchen as a result but I do worry more about safe storage because that's what causes the bacteria to multiply.

MmeLindt · 08/08/2010 21:53

MumNW
Well, since I had the personal experience of a baby suffering from salmonella I would and have said something.

"You may not be aware of it but the guidelines for making up bottles have changed recently and I see you are using cold water to make up the formula. Even a lot of HV are still giving the wrong advice. I hope you don't mind me pointing it out, but my son had salmonella poisoning because I made up the bottles like that"

If they are not interested then I would not push it.

welliemum · 08/08/2010 22:13

Al1son I suspect that although you might read specific risks differently, our approach is very similar.

I aim to work out where the serious infection risks are, then concentrate on those.

So I keep my kitchen clean but don't try to run it like an operating theatre and don't stress about toddlers eating food off the floor. However I treat raw chicken as if it were radioactive and I'd be very careful about milk and babies.