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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that although we may be lucky, it hasn't all been down to just luck

183 replies

Litchick · 29/07/2010 17:07

Have a friend staying at the moment and she has told DC that our very comfortable existence is all a matter of luck.
Luck that we were born in the west. Luck to be clever. Luck to have reasonable parents etc.

I know she's right, and yet I want to impress upon DC that it hasn't been like winning the lottery. We have had to work our arses off and still do.

AIBU, or should I just leave it that indeed we are incredibly lucky?

OP posts:
LeQueen · 30/07/2010 19:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sunny2010 · 30/07/2010 20:08

I dont have anything against people choosing jobs that make money. I just hate the idea that if you are in a low paid position you are uneducated or dont try.

I have a 2:1 degree and start my masters next month but work for close to the minimum wage. I dont have to do it but I do it because I want to make a difference to social deprived children. I just hate the misconception that you are not successful or are low status unless you are constantly striving for more money.

I am on a low wage but dont have any real worries and my job makes me happier than anything in the world (other than being with my family). We used to be on double our current income and my husband and I both gave it up to work helping others (him learning dis, me socially deprived children). I have less worries now and am happier than I ever have been as I have a sense of fulfilment and contentment that I have never had before.

MrsC2010 · 30/07/2010 20:12

I don't equate money with success any more, but I guess I say that coming from the position that I have made good money before and we are in the position to be able to make that choice if you see what I mean! I.E: We had a good amount of equity to put into our lovely house meaning our outgoings are very low for a nice lifestyle. That means that now I have decided to stop work for a year or so with our first child (coming any day fingers crossed) we can afford for me to do so without any real sacrifice. So perhaps it is easy for me to say that I don't value money more than anything else because it isn't a huge huge worry?!

toccatanfudge · 30/07/2010 20:23

"it means you can then spend your time doing the things which make you happiest."

but only if you need the material things to make you happy

MrsC - you see I would say that you do value money more because you don't have to worry about it. You place a value on what the money can buy - a year or so off work with your first child (if that makes sense).

The only thing I REALLY want that only money can buy is a cleaner for an hour or 2 a week to do the jobs I hate .

You see for me when we were living "comfortably" money was more of a worry - we had a nice lifestyle (no overseas holidays - but that was because it was going to be PITA getting visa's for exH as he had a Zim passport) and there was always the worry of "what if he loses his job" "what if something awful happens to one of us/the children and we're forced to cut out/his hours dramatically" "what would happen to the way we were used to living".

I've come to learn that life can throw such unexpected shit at you when you're least expecting it that it's much nicer to lead the simple life

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 30/07/2010 20:31

Lequeen - that's not about success, it's about wealth.

BarmyArmy · 30/07/2010 23:57

Capitalism allows those with talent, drive and ambition to get to the top.

Any other form of economy dumbs us all down to some lowest common denominator and inhibits spark, skill and innovation.

It's not a perfect system but it's better than all the others.

draftywindows · 31/07/2010 00:08

I also don't equate happiness or success with money. I chose to walk away from millions and not take a penny in a divorce settlement. Although to be honest a little more money would sometimes be nice, it would mean more children, I could work part time and be under less stress and we could buy a house sooner. I would love to be able to travel more, listening to people's tales of adventurous gap years brings out the green eyed monster in me.

To me sucess is being able to follow a career where I think I am making a difference, being able to have a meal out without worrying and to have a holiday once a year and regular days out and never having to hide behind the sofa because bailiffs are at the door. I also don't ever want to have to deny my dd an educational opportunity because of money or for her to feel guilty because she is not out at work as soon as her GCSEs are over. For someone like me to achieve that it does take a lot of hard work, guts, drive and ambition. Luck may be in there somewhere but it is an added ingredient not the major factor ( once you have allowed for the fact that I was born in the UK)

sunny2010 · 31/07/2010 09:01

'Capitalism allows those with talent, drive and ambition to get to the top.'

Yeah but for some people at the top that means walking all over people, being excessively materialistic and wasteful and looking down on others who do worthwhile jobs that keep the country running. Thats the people I dont agree with.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 31/07/2010 09:20

BarmyArmy :- 'Capitalism allows those with talent, drive and ambition to get to the top.' There are more people with talent, drive and ambition than there are places at the top. So those at the top have got lucky.

"Any other form of economy dumbs us all down to some lowest common denominator and inhibits spark, skill and innovation."

Capitalism is about the efficient allocation of capital. It says nothing about skill, spark or innovation, and will drive those things out if they are inefficienct - for instance the ongoing deskilling of work. Capitalism promises to make an economy richer, but that is all.

Quodlibet · 31/07/2010 10:28

Taking things back slightly to the OP's original post -

There's an interesting psychological assessment tool (we looked at it the other day for a project I am doing) which places people on a scale of whether they have an internal 'locus of control' (ie they believe that effort=reward and we all have influence over the shape of our lives) or an external locus of control (ie they believe that fate shapes our lives and many things are too random to control)

here

Apparently everyone sits somewhere on the scale between two extremes, but some nearer one end than the other.

Personally I'm at the 'internal' end of the spectrum, believing that we can shape our lives around the priorities we have decided are important for us, individually and collectively. I've also realised I quickly get frustrated with those who sit at the other extreme (although I am trying to be more patient). I feel that it can lead to people not taking responsibility for their lives as much as they could.

I don't know where capitalism fits into this, but I reckon that most unequal power systems, where the few rule the many, rely on a large part of the population having an external locus of control and feeling like it is natural that their lives are shaped by forces beyond their control.

For me it would be very important to try to help my children develop an internal locus of control for these reasons - although I think the OP's friend probably offered something just as valuable to them with her viewpoint by making them consider that circumstances aren't equal around the world.

toccatanfudge · 31/07/2010 10:33

circumstances aren't equal in this country - let alone around the world.

That assessment is very "black and white" isn't it.

I started and realised the 2 options for each one are at the utmost extremes - should have it as a "agree/disagree" on a scale of 1-10......

BettyTurnip · 31/07/2010 13:15

Just as an aside, going way up the thread, I think Snobear is a journalist.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 31/07/2010 14:16

I dunno, the description sounds more like a traffic warden.

emy72 · 31/07/2010 15:13

Your children are obviously very lucky to have been born in a family that is able to cater for their needs/provide them with opportunities and a good life.

It is total pot luck where kids are born, clearly, as far as they are concerned.

I do tell my kids THEY are lucky.

But WE are not lucky to have what we have as it has cost enormous sacrifices and hard work. So it's a bit of both imo!

minxofmancunia · 31/07/2010 15:42

I think i was lucky to be born to educated, caring parents in a developed country who loved me and cared about my education, well being etc. I didn't make the most of my brains which i was lucky to be born with, I did the bare minimum to get by at school. i chose a career which was easy for me to qualify in although it's tough to do (mental health nursing) whereas i should have pushed myself, made the most of my opportunities and I would be a clinical psychologist by now. i underachieved. Cleverest girl in the school albeit a crap comprehensive but then total disaffectation with everything, plus I became depressed on my late teens and early 20s and it was about getting through just everyday. It's unlucky that i have a strong family history of depression.

However the fact that once I qualified and realised i was good and rose to senior level within 18 months wasn't luck, it was sheer hard graft. Buying my first flat when I did and getting lots of equity out of it to buy the next house was astute. I tried to create opportunities. I've nearly killed myself doing this post grad in CBT but this is to improve mine and my families quality of life as I can apply for higher grade jobs.

DH and his brother had the same crappy unboundaried, chaotic upbringing. BiL and MiL are very "woe is me" "bad things happen all the time" etc. and have what would be called "dependency schema" in CBT. DH is TOTALLY the opposite, he's the only one in his family who went to Uni, he's exceptionally gfted at maths and electronics (God knows where his intelligence comes from) and very good at meeting the right people and having the right contacts. He's very very driven to provide for his family and the situation we're in now,nice house (although not grand or anything) in lovely area, 2 cars holidays etc. is something we've earned through sheer hard work and determination, both of us.

MiL once said we were "lucky" to have the house we had and the salaries we're on (again certanly not huge, prob just above average) with that woe is me thing going on in her voice, makes me .

draftywindows · 31/07/2010 18:42

I find personality fascinating. I do wonder if my personality is a product of my upbringing. I just would not have made it if I was not the way I am. I have had to fight for everything I have and that has to affect you.

MrsRigby · 31/07/2010 18:52

OP is your 'friend' telling this to her children or yours? If it's the latter I'd kick her out the house and never speak/see her again.

Yes, I guess that being born in the west is a bit of luck. And that your lucky you have reasonable parents.

But I draw the line at luck because your clever. Your clever because you studied hard and long enough and paid attention when it was needed.

Sounds like your 'friend' is a bit of a bitch who greatly resents your life.

draftywindows · 31/07/2010 18:55

I do think that part of being clever is luck of birth to be honest. Of course you need to work hard to make the most of your brains.

tethersend · 31/07/2010 19:24

This is the problem with this discussion- people who have worked hard for what they have find it offensive if it is stated that they are lucky, as it implies that they have not worked for what they have, as if luck and hard work were mutually exclusive. They aren't.

Of course people have worked hard for what they have; most people, in fact. The luck aspect only comes into play when you compare the hard working, self sacrificing, ambitious, driven and/or clever individual who is successful with the one who is not.

As has been said many times, capitalism needs there to be more on the bottom than on the top. This is why some succeed and some do not- this does not negate the huge amount of hard work put in by those who have been successful.

abr1de · 31/07/2010 20:24

Very interesting link, Quodlibet! Thank you.

abr1de · 31/07/2010 20:43

I think, as much as luck, success in life (in the West, at least) comes down to a willingness to defer gratification.

It's old-fashioned, boring and hard work. It means staying in to study when your friends are perhaps going out. It means saving money. It means tolerating situations that aren't comfortable (difficult lectures, less than ideal accommodation when you're first working, etc).

It means deferring child-bearing until you're able to give the children the best possible start in life. For some families this will be at a younger age than others. I know very successful families where the mother and father were in their early twenties when they had a first child, but very settled.

draftywindows · 31/07/2010 21:08

Deferred gratification is the one thing I cannot do!

toccatanfudge · 31/07/2010 21:34

but there will still be those that follow the boring old fashioned hard work, and do the things you say - but still won't get that promotion, The jobs just won't be there.

My dad spent almost his entire working life "chasing" qualifications/jobs. Trying to get that next step up. No sooner had he completed a qualification......the jobs wouldn't be there and he'd end up doing something else that required a different qualification.

And lets not forget that a whole range of things may occur to those young successful families in their 30's (or even when they have their carefully saved up for and planned child) that can throw all best laid plans out of kilt.

Of course only the priveledged few have success because it was handed to them on a plate. However, as somsone further up said most people work hard for what they have. But only a limited number of those will get further than the bottom rung no matter how smart they are, how hard they work, and how ambitious they are.

I remember at school (was a specialist music school) we needed a director of music. 3 candidates made the final short list. They were all excellent, highly skilled, great communicators, years and years of similar experience. Only one of those people could get that coveted job as Director of Music at a specialist music school and there was nothing between them at all. They were all perfect for the role........but only one of those highly driven, ambitious, and intelligent people could get the job

The same goes when you go down to the jobs of the working poor. 30 people on the factory floor, 10 hard workers all equally capable of moving up , one line managers job - 9 unlucky people.

Without hard work you will achieve nothing - hard work opens up the opportunities, but by no means guarantees them, that part comes down to luck.

It was luck that means I'm living where I am now, in a house in a reasonable area, at a very cheap price, (approx £60 a month cheaper than anything else in this area), at a price that once I start working I should still be able to comfortably afford to live here. With a landlord that was willing to accept housing benefit. There was absolutely NOTHING I could have done to get somewhere like this that will enable my future working life to be easier in terms of being able to leave DS1 at home during the holidays (thus opening up more chance of finding a job in the first place), and in terms of being able to afford it even when I start off at the bottom on minimum wage.

Had I had to move a month earlier, or a month later I would not have been so lucky - it would have been a more expensive property, and in an area that I couldn't leave DS1 on his own

Alouiseg · 01/08/2010 01:01

Dh always says that the harder he works the luckier we get. We've had some serious business and personal knocks over the years.

LeQueen · 01/08/2010 13:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.